Origination
Join us as we delve into the world of multifamily and commercial real estate, engaging in insightful interviews with industry-leading loan originators and salespeople. Discover the secrets that set apart these top performers from the competition as we uncover the strategies and skills that drive their success.
Origination
Episode 21: Adam Lipkin, the C-PACE Guy
Meet the only individual I know in the industry who has his title trademarked--Adam Lipkin is known as the "C-PACE guy" after getting involved and becoming really the expert at this new type of financing. Just having his name trademarked will clue you into the fact that Adam doesn't approach the industry and opportunities like everyone else. His creative approach to the business is innovative and unique!
TIMESTAMPS:
2:00-10:00 - What is Wim Hof Breathing?
10:00-15:00 - Early Sales Experience
15:30-19:00 - School outreach, charter school business
19:00-32:00 - What is CPACE?
33:00-35:00- Why Trademark?
37:00 - 42:00 - Pull Marketing
42:30-44:30 - What are sales people doing wrong with their approach now?
45:00-51:30 - Advice to those starting out in the industry
53:00-57:00 - How can you learn more about CPACE?
57:00 - Morning Routines
lenders, market, people, loan, client, equity, selling, deals, screen protectors, year, calls, rates, business, borrower, easy, long, sales, chase, interest rates, debt
Welcome back to the Origination podcast, where we talk to the top originators and salespeople in the multifamily industry to try to understand what separates the top performers from the rest of the pack. On this episode, I'll be speaking with Adam Lipkin. Adam is the only guest I've had on the podcast, and in fact, the only individual I know in the industry who has his title trademarked. Adam is known as the "C-PACE guy" after getting involved and becoming really the expert at this new type of financing. Just having his name trademarked will give you a clue into the fact that Adam doesn't approach the industry and opportunities like everyone else. He is very creative, a really unique way of approaching the business and I think you'll really enjoy this conversation. Without further ado, let's talk to Adam. All right, Adam Lipkin. Welcome to the Origination podcast. It's great to have you here.
Adam Lipkin:It is an honor to be here, Mordecai.
Mordecai Rosenberg:So, Adam, I'm gonna start our conversation a little unconventionally. Usually, I'll jump right into turning the clock back and talking about first sales experiences. But because we've established a common connection with Wim Hof--
Adam Lipkin:We're going to do a round of Wim Hof breathing right here on the podcast!
Mordecai Rosenberg:Well, we're not going to do that. But let's talk a little bit about Wim Hof because I feel like you and I maybe are a little bit like rare birds in the attic.
Adam Lipkin:I tell you that the first thing I ever said your dad is I jumped in to like a conversation before it got started. And they're talking about like some wellness like, oh, like maybe this energy drink. I'm just like, Have you ever tried Wim Hof breathing?
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah.
Adam Lipkin:And without missing a beat, he's like, Oh, my son does that. And like, it's something about like, and he got a three minute breath hold. And I'm like, that's amazing. And I'm like this, and I'm like, so into this at the time for like nine months. So that was the first conversation. It's pretty funny.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. So I feel like, you know, in the world of salespeople, I don't find a lot of them that have practices like this, like that regimented your meditation or breathing practices. Or maybe they're just not talking about it.
Adam Lipkin:It might be, but I think it would be helpful.
Mordecai Rosenberg:So can you describe Wim Hof breathing first and and then we'll see where the conversation goes from from there.
Adam Lipkin:Yeah, and also just the idea behind like, why are we doing Wim Hof breathing?
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, yeah. So what is it? Why?
Adam Lipkin:Yeah, I mean, so so maybe I could even just talk about that too, for a second. Because I think we share that, that real interest and just optimization being your best self. And, and I think there's things about being masterful and getting into these amazing ways of being these states, these flow states, right, you know, you could call it all sorts of things. And it's like, there's these practices, you know, it could be, you know, go for a run in the morning. But I think there's something that everybody has access to. And it's your breath. And I think it's fascinating that when you find these practices that have just probably been around for so long, and you realize that wow, like, this could really create a way of being it gets me in a level 10 state, I feel good, I feel like energized and I just, I why not have that right. So anyway, so on this Wim Hof breathing, I got into it almost two years ago. So it's a style of deep breathing, where you're basically following a certain sequence, it's, you're probably taking, let's call it anywhere from 20 to 40, deep breaths, and I'm just gonna, like, you know, like big belly breaths, like really into the diaphragm, like a really big breath, and exhale, and just keep it it's simple, you're not gonna overthink it, but you're doing about 20 to 40 of these deep breaths. And then on the last one, you're kind of just kind of letting it out, not like too much, and you're holding it for as long as you can, until it feels comfortable, where you just like, you know, you take another breath, and very simple, but this simple practice leads to feeling incredible after like three, four rounds of it. So there's all sorts of science behind it, you know, that it really boosts your immune system and really kind of charges your body up, but you just feel better. So it's a very simple breathing technique.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. And then at the end of the each round, then you're letting go of all the breath then you're holding your breath.
Adam Lipkin:You're holding you're holding for 15 seconds, correct? Yeah. So So after the, you know, the long retention, you breathe in, hold it. 15 seconds. And then you let go and you do another round.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Right? So the full sequence for around is you're taking, let's say 20 to 40, or 50. Deep breaths. On the last breath, you exhale and hold on the exhale. Right? And I think one of the things that's pretty remarkable is that even after the first, you know, you think if I, if I thought about, oh, how long can I hold my breath? I would say, I don't know, maybe 30 seconds. Like, I remember, as a kid, if I could get to like a minute. That was huge, right. But then you do one round of Wim Hof breathing your very first time, and you're holding your breath for a minute and a half. And then you do another round, and you're holding it for two minutes. Right? And then another round that and maybe it could be you know, even even more. So to me, there's something remarkable. It almost makes you feel like Superman a little bit. Like, oh, my gosh, I can't leave, I just held my breath for two minutes. That's remarkable. So there's something that feels--
Adam Lipkin:Like a little win.
Mordecai Rosenberg:It's a little win, right?
Adam Lipkin:For sure.
Mordecai Rosenberg:It's like, damn, I can't believe I just did that. You know.
Adam Lipkin:I love it, I love it that you could gamify these things like they have the app right that you know, if so everybody who just kind of like what are you guys talking about, you should go on to the App Store and type in Wim Hof W-i-m-h-o-f. And it's a free app, and it just walks you through all this. But one of the things is you track your time, it's literally becomes a thing where you're kinda like, Oh, nice, I held my breath longer. I mean, that's not necessarily the point. But it does become like a fun thing. Just to see more than curiosity, like, oh, wow, I held it for two minutes. Yeah.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. Well, origination, you know, being a salesperson is very stressful, you know, and you have things that are coming at you all day long. Right? The things that really are stressful, though, are the are, it's, it's our, you know, our brains stress us out, because then we're worried about, okay, this, you know, we just got an appraisal that came back short, or this client is not happy. And then it puts us into a high state of stress. So, to me, I think you need that counterbalance of training your brain, how to just relax, and just be at peace. So to me, I feel like if salespeople would, would try, if they started their day, you know, we did an experiment for 30 days, it just started their day, with your three rounds of Wim Hof breathing, which takes probably 10 minutes, which is not that much time, except that when you're in a rush in the morning, it feels like constantly feel like oh, my gosh, I don't have 10 minutes, but everyone has 10 minutes. So it would probably be an interesting experiment for people to try.
Adam Lipkin:I would love to see that. And I'd love to see that in. You know, why not? Have everybody do that? I mean, why would it be like, I actually think that's a brilliant idea. I mean, what's more important than training your mind to be in a level 10 to go into all your conversations, your best self? Is it possible that would be more effective? Why not do that with the whole group? Yeah. So some more thing, it was I'm really into that. I think it's such a great point, as you're going I'm like, I mean, and I totally do that. I do it in the morning to set my day, right. But if I know I'm going to be having, like some, like even this, like before I do a podcast, and I know, I want to be in a great state to feel connected and engaged. I'm doing a couple rounds of Wim Hof. Yeah, like suppose that, you know.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, it's really a magical tool. It's like Xanax, or something for your Yeah, that you can access just like that, you know?
Adam Lipkin:I got really into doing a lot of personal growth and development work in my 20s, I'm 41 now, and one of the biggest things that I feel like happened to me was, I was like, jeez, it would have been good to have learned this when you're 8. You know, I feel like I always had so much of a concern about not wanting to look bad, you know, and it would have you not speak up or, you know, and I'm like, if I could tell any kids like they're coming out of school, what's the one thing you do is have the courage to go into the partners office, just,"hey, I'm here, you know, I love what you're doing", learn a thing or two about them, but like make yourself like, known as somebody that's there to help and do it. And don't be afraid, but I feel like that was a big thing. But I think when I did a lot of work, the first thought was, is got it, you know, kids should learn a lot of this stuff. So whether it be meditating or learning Wim Hof, you know, I think of my girls and I'm like, I would love- and my actually my oldest daughter, actually, she'll do this, she'll be like [Deep breath], and my, my wife will say, What are you doing? And she's like, I'm deep breathing, you know? And I'm like, I think it's kind of cool to learn that at a young age because think about all the things from test taking to just, you know, there's times where it'd be good to have a tool to be able to get more relaxed, feel more centered, want to learn when you're five or eight, you know?
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, totally. So, thank you for the meandering for love.
Adam Lipkin:It's great and I could help people you know, if there's one thing somebody could do all the all the productivity tools, take care of your health, you know, and learn some of these things. You'll feel better You'll do better. Yeah, I think it's it's super important, especially over the last few years where we've been in I mean, you know, these are good practices.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Totally. So Adam, now we will go, we will turn back the clock. I've looked at your profile on LinkedIn and you've had an interesting path. You started at at NY and so if you had to you because we're focused on sales, if you have to think back to your early sales experience or entrepreneurial experience. What would come to mind? Anything jump out?
Adam Lipkin:So I love this question. And I love when I hear people's answers. But I mean, like selling Blow Pops and Airheads in middle school. Just going to go into Costco and getting like a pack and just liking that. It's a fun, you know, I enjoyed it. Like I always thought it was fun to, and I thought it would be fun to learn how to do it better. So I always like as I got older, looking at how people are great at communicating. And so, I mean, yeah, like early middle school age. And then frankly, I wasn't doing as much sales in real estate. Before the, you know, the big recession, I was actually born in an analyst role. But I was just getting into more of a sales role was it was definitely something on my mind, it was actually getting out of the industry that I really had the first sell and it was like a start a business. And it was just like, that was the real sales experience that I then took back into real estate, I got back in and around 2014. And it was with a lot of love of not even just sales, but also learning how to build attention to come to you. Like, you know, through a lot of the copy and a lot of being able- to it's called pull based marketing. But I always felt it's really cool to learn how to communicate in written word. And people could connect with that and reach out to you. So I got into that as well, when it came to sales experiences the marketing side of it.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, so let's talk about that business, because you were in real estate. And then I guess, 08 / 09, right, you went went into coaching for youth. So can you describe what that what that business was?
Adam Lipkin:So I basically had all sorts of programs. And so and let's even back up like so, I saw in 2008, you know, what do you do? There was nothing happening, you know, it came to financing, that kind of stuff that we were doing it for most people 2008 was just like a standstill is another level. Some people I think in the last two years of COVID had that same effect, certainly certain industries. But I felt like that across the board was just like everything was on hold for, you know, you know, like how long, right? I mean, it was it definitely looked like you couldn't say when things were ending. So I think for a good year, plus, it was just deer in headlights for a lot of us. I took it as an opportunity to start a business. And it was in an area that I thought was really interesting. And it was that same idea. We just talked about a lot of these personal growth programs that one of the big things needed when it comes to youth is a lot of these emotional and social skills, like learning how to speak up learning how to be able to be more resilient. And I just you never know when these chance encounters happen. But I met a guy introduced through a friend who had this business in another part of Florida. And it was all around basically going to schools, charter schools, private schools all over the community, and bringing high quality programs and a lot of cases after school programs and all around self defense and all around safety education and bullying prevention. And frankly, was an area that I just connected with because I went through my own experience of bullying. And I really had to do a lot of work to learn how to be able to stand up for yourself and speak up for yourself. And so it was basically doing these programs in all these schools over South Florida, having coaches that were trained in self defense and you know, really came from that background, teaching kids basic self defense. And then ended up doing all sorts of summer camp programs after school programs with this fundamental context of building your life skills at a young age like being more resilient, all the grit, the perseverance, all the character traits that you want to learn and you want to teach your kids. And I did that for several years. It was something, It was wild, it was like such a journey, but you learned so much about yourself and what you like and where you connected. And I really loved communicating this vision to all the families. And I think what I learned is how to do that because it's tough. It's tough to be able to, you know, take something and simplify it. So I think that's when I really got into how do you communicate and it led to marketing it led to, you know, how do you simplify and i i loved it, I loved it right from the start, you know, all these guys that were really big in that area.
Mordecai Rosenberg:So who was your client? Was it the school or was it the parents?
Adam Lipkin:It was both it was the school that would say, hey, we'll do a profit share. You lease the space for the summer of the after school, and basically percentage rent, you know. And so it was first the school were the accounts. And it gives them an ability to offer higher quality programming to their families, and maybe even you know, boost a little bit of profit, but really just to add value stand out more, and have it be possible to be profitable, not, you know, take out of the budget, and then ultimately the parents. So as both.
Mordecai Rosenberg:So you, you would get a list of schools that you're going to target. So how did that outreach look like? Who would you call the principal? Or who would you reach out to at the school?
Adam Lipkin:So we ended up typically taking an approach where you just go to the principal, or actually a lot of these schools, it's interesting. So we got really niched into the charter school world, which is such an interesting space in so many states. And these charter schools are run by these pretty robust management companies, in some cases, they have like National footprints and hundreds of schools all over the country. And so we really just went right to the top and just went to the, you know, charter management company, or the principal at one that we already had a relationship with, and just said, let's do this and more of your schools, like just be very strategic. And with it was like an 80/20 Rule completely with this, where we had like, 80% of the business from this one big charter school management company that had tons of schools all over South Florida, like that was that was really the anchor, and that was a effective strategy.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Hmm. That's interesting. So as far as who you were looking for, did you just happen upon that management company? Or, because sometimes you have, let's say, taking the multifamily industry, you have sometimes like really big fish that might have, you know, just 10s of 1000s of units. But those are often times harder to get in with, because they have a lot more people trying to get their attention, then you have people who have gotten smaller portfolios, or they may have a couple 100 units, a couple 1000 units, but you're not going to get as big bang for the buck. So how did you? How did you think about that? And has that colored how you think about prospecting today, you know, in multifamily, and we'll, we'll come around to what you're doing today in the space.
Adam Lipkin:So it's an interesting approach, because I can actually see exactly how it plays out now. But you're actually taking more of an approach to go to like, the better, you know, more established groups, and just give them something unique. So, yeah, could you go to like maybe a startup Charter School, similar sort of multifamily operator and maybe have more of a chance to get attention? Yes. But if you show up with something a little more unique, in this case, these are programs that weren't really so available, the alternative would have been, you know, almost no program, or, you know, maybe, you know, in the case of having a summer camp at a school, you would have usually just like a, you know, closed facility, right? So you're doing something a little unique, you're really not having two to three other people pitch you on the same thing, from the school's perspective is more of like, are we gonna do it or not? So you're, you're approaching groups that are more established and saying, Hey, here's a new way for you to add value to your clients or families. And by the way, it pays for itself, and you actually make a little profit. And, you know, like, you either have them to see it as like, Oh, this is a new thing we could offer to add more value, or we don't do it. So that approach, I could totally see that I got and I was like, Oh, that I like showing up with something unique. And kind of being an almost like a category of one. But that's 100% played out in what I ended up doing back in real estate with this unique product with commercial pays. Like that's the exact same 100%. It's cool when you ask that because I'm like connecting the dots. Absolutely. That's the case, to show up with something that's very unique. It's almost like CPACE. Plus, every loan product that exists will eventually be real over 1-5, 10 years. So I said, Hey, yeah, 100% the same thing. It's interesting.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. Adam, you're the only person who I've ever met in the industry who whose name is trademarked. So you know-
Adam Lipkin:Legitimately trademark Mordecai. Yeah, legitimate. People say why was he crazy? Yeah. So it it goes with the brand.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. So so for those who aren't familiar. So Adam Lipkin is known as the CPACE guy with TM. So, you know, when you describe the Can you describe the CPACE program, and how you got into it, what you saw as the opportunity there?
Adam Lipkin:Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's cool, because, you know, just having been in real estate since really 2003. I mean, you know, seeing the last cycle up and down, you just you just see things and so, I saw CMBS when it was already out for a little bit when it was 2004. But, you know, you heard people that were close enough to it, and that's commercial mortgage backed securities, but if you're everybody's, a lot of people are already familiar with real estate products, but anyways, It grew a lot in 10 years, like 10, fold and beyond. And it became a new financial product that a lot of people use to get the money needed for their real estate. So I think I saw this new product coming online in 2017. In the summer, CPACE, which stands for commercial property assessed clean energy, it's essentially a bucket of capital for any construction in a new development, or even like, if you're doing add on work to your real estate, that is an extra bucket that could be available for certain financing of energy related items, it's basically anything in a development, that would be touching the energy bills, about 20% of your heart costs and a new build. And for your current real estate, if you're putting in lighting, or each HVAC or installation, all these costs that touch your energy bill are covered for CP. So it's a bucket of money available for a lot of the stuff that people are going to be doing in real estate. And it's lower cost financing it's like in the five ish rate range, but that's coming down a ton when I was just getting into it, it was in the seven range. So this is a product that's really becoming more more competitive, but long term with flexible ability to get out of it. And potentially the game in financing is we're trying to get access to, you know, more money at a lower cost that's flexible, CPACE is a potential solution to get lowered, overall capital costs get a little more money for your real estate projects. So it's this kind of like emerging product that is just growing exponentially. So I saw this in 2017. And because people here it is property assessed clean energy, there's a lot of misinformation. It's like, oh, this is like a green product, I gotta change my budget. No, you don't have to change your budget. Like, there's all these things that people just aren't aware of. So I feel like I've also been trying to get my voice out there more and more just from an education standpoint. But, you know, I saw this thing in 2017. Nobody knew about it. But yet some of the biggest operators and real estate owners had been using it for at least a couple years. And I'm like, Okay, this is really interesting. It's not so often you come across, and it's and it's still playing into this, it's a much bigger thing now, but at the time, it was playing into this movement towards, you know, renewables sustainability, energy efficiency, which you just saw getting bigger and bigger. Now, it's really starting to hit another level of attention. But you even start at rumblings of it back, you know, in 2017. But even from the simple standpoint of lower cost capital, you just saw that people would connect with that same as CMBS. Same with mess financing, reduces your equity needs, you know, gives you an ability to juice your returns. So just from a simple sampler, I'm like, Wow, this product is going to be in demand. And in by more and more people, and I saw that if you could get ahead of it, and really be really good with it, you know, in this niche, I think it's really important to have a niche that you're you're good at hence, like the, the this guy that that guy for me was the CPACE guy, I just think attention is the currency. And if you could be great at getting attention for a niche area, you could create so much opportunity with it. And so that was the idea behind this niche product CPACE, which probably a lot of people still either have never done anything with and never closed with it, or have maybe heard about it, but don't really, you know, know much about it. So it's good to even have an opportunity to be a little bit more of like the, hey, here's what you should know, here's what works, here's what doesn't. And that's been good, that's been really helpful. Being able to take that to like such a such a big platform.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Right? And it's not an incredibly this is wrong, but it's not in competition with other senior loan programs, right. So if someone is getting a construction loan from a, it could be Wells Fargo, or it could be Citibank, or it could be you and anyone see paste works behind theoretically works behind any first mortgage program so that you wouldn't have to really compete with their senior lender.
Adam Lipkin:So it's so how do you know so if anything this this is this is like the main thing that needs to be discussed, and basically the structure of CPACE it's an assessment that gets added to the tax bill, that's the form of repayment. So it's this public private partnership, the different states enable legislation they let property owners and developers cover all these construction costs all these energy efficiency items by financing them and using their tax bill to pay it back. So let's say get a million dollars that you need to put in for like solar panels. And rather than coming out of pocket you might say oh there CPACE financing available, I could finance all million bucks, five ish rate spread over 20-25 years, and all I have a step down prepay that I could pay it off in two years or three years. So you put this in, instead of the million dollars, you got to come out of pocket. You're financing it for like 90 grand extra on your tax bill. But what you're getting is is you're getting savings that are going to be at least 180 more likely by putting in solar panels. So a bunch of people just use it from the simple standpoint of I'm going to finance energy savings. What happened a few years ago, a lot of developers realized, Oh, I could use this. For my development as structured finance, it's the same thing playing out in the ground lease space, when people are bifurcating the improvements from the land, people said, Hey, I could use this CPACE for structured financing. Because all the same stuff that you know, you want to do in a building for all these energy upgrades, it's every development project, you're going to have lighting and all these new, you know, mechanical systems and electrical systems, right. And so all that stuff qualifies your CPACE. So probably in 2016, you start to see developers try to go and use it for construction. Right? So out of like a $50 million project, they'd have like, a $30 million bank loan, you know, like, you know, any number of banks would do, especially for multifamily 60%, leverage, pretty doable, and they would get about 10 million of CPACE out of that 50, about 20%, around that number would probably qualify. And they would say, Oh, 10 million bucks, like, you know, I could maybe use that instead of equity. And they go to the lender, and they say, Hey, you know, instead of my 20 million I want to CPACE the same way I want to use mez or pref, whatever. And the lender says, sure, you know, is this told me about a lot, a lot of lenders might not know about it still, but they'll ask them the position. And you'll say, Well, you know, it's it's taxes. So they would say it's priming me, and you'd have to have this back and forth with some letters and say, Well, it's a it's an assessment that has no rights, it's the property, not the borrower to pay it off early, you know, like, there's, like, you know, like, what's, what's the issue, and some have said, Okay, we're going to underwrite it as an operating expense. And whatever that you know, you know, new stabilized income is we're going to lend off of that. And you could still see it even work in those cases, like, when you're financing an energy savings, you're gonna bump the income by saving, right a little bit on that expense side. So you see, a lot of lenders, a lot of banks have done that today, they've said, hey, $20 million asset, somebody wants to put a million dollars of, you know, energy improvements, we'll do that because it's going to boost the bottom line. For construction, it's been a little bit more of like a well, you're not really changing your budget, but we still get that you're at a, you know, you're bringing in a product that helps you to move the development forward, it's something that's going to be, you know, relatively passive. So maybe this isn't so bad, even if it's in this assessment position, because we could pay it off early. Think about what happens in any kind of scenario where things slow down, it's probably not so bad. If you have a passive tax assessment that can't do anything accelerate, or maybe foreclose, they just basically are sitting passively, the same way the property taxes are. And then if you resolve your situation, you stabilize your asset, you're paying it off, maybe in the future year or two. So I've seen lenders come around last few years going from, hey, you know, what this thing is, you know, kind of in front of me, I don't know, we don't have a playbook for it to say, what, let's underwrite it to a combined take out analysis, where we know there's a permanent loan, that gets us out of our loan and the pace, and we'll you know, maybe do it in a little bit of a discount to it, you know, like 90 / 95%, of whatever that permanent loan is. So I've I've been doing this for three years, mainly selling lenders on using pace like that's, that's actually my sale, and a lot of ways all the borrowers wanted, who wouldn't want to replace equity, it's getting a lender to see it more like this hybrid, which it is, it's not dead, it's not super senior debt, it's an assessment that has some properties that maybe you're more desirable than maybe, you know, more aggressive debt. So that's really cool to be part of that. Because that's where this is going over the next 510 years. And some lenders will, you know, do it quicker than others. But that's, that's a game that I've been playing out for last few years. And I'm long on it, and I think over the next 10 years, it'll be interesting to look back and say, How did it go with CPACE? And I I'm making a huge bet on it.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. So how do your first calls to a client usually go cuz you've been at a number of different firms. You've you were at Greenbridge think maybe you're at HFF Yes, as well. Right? So firms that probably call you know, a call feels like a commodity sales call. Not to take away anything from those firms. It's just the industry that we're in. Right and now you came back with a unique product right? Something that you're now making calls where someone hasn't necessarily heard the pitch before. So how does that go? You can you compare like how that these calls go compared to how calls when in the past where you're just calling it better financing or something like that?
Adam Lipkin:Oh, it's so it becomes very fun to have these calls because you know, something about an area that's kind of new, a lot of people want to get more of like, what's the real thing to know about? So you immediately feel great about being able to add value and say listen, Hey, you don't have to change your budget, it's actually, you could keep it as is or oh, by the way, here's a lender that we've closed the deal with, it gets you to 85% leverage. So you have just good information, right. So that's cool to have something unique. And it's funny, the, the guy that runs the group that I used to be at, he had this really great quote that I'll never forget, he said with PACE, like you get to be the Dos Equis guy showed up in a room. And I said, I love that. I love to show up with something unique, because it's interesting. And there's so there's this great, easy, like, Oh, what is this thing either somebody hasn't heard of, or you just kind of explained, like, listen, somebody's talking. And you might hear that they're looking for certain things in the financing higher leverage non recourse, they're trying to preserve, you know, their ownership, you know, so they prefer some of these unique structures that get them higher than like a low leverage bank and all equity. So you look for those pieces that line up well to this as a possible solution. So first is listening for what does somebody need, like what is what is like, you know, gonna really help them. And then I might also just say, like, look, this is one of a number of options I'm very big on focusing on, we're gonna give you 10 options, and we're gonna look at PACE, we're gonna look at a ground lease, we're gonna look at a debt fund, we're gonna look at a bank. So I love that approach, where you give people a bunch of options, and you tell them the pros and cons, and then you get what I believe is best execution. And you want to do like an unbelievable amount, but you want to do like two or three, I like to see PACE and the conversation, especially now, because the big thing missing has been, Oh, who's the lender that's friendly to it? That's like the one I can anybody spend any time with it? The number one question is, you know, what lender could I do this with, like, who could give me the leverage I want that's reasonably priced. So knowing that, like, that was my whole strategy was CPACE, I would work with other brokers and borrowers and basically help put together the debt with a CPACE that was extremely helpful. So it was that background of having this network of CPACE friendly lenders that would do it, or have done it with you, that you could bring now to this best in class platform that has all these products, and do it, you know, in all these unique ways, and really be able to do what I call CPACE. Plus, because you really need the plus you need the debt. So I think that's the big conversation now is it's usually talking to folks, largely it's multifamily developers, I mean, it's very niche, what I'm focused on multifamily developers that are doing, you know, projects that are probably north of, you know, 70 75 million to 250 unit garden style, and just having something great for them. So it's the same approaches where we're talking about the schools, is it's having a very specific niche and just showing up with something that's just unique that nobody's talking about, but actually being able to say, oh, and we've done it, like, Oh, we've also executed with CPACE, and the right construction lender that's priced right and gets you this leverage. Oh, we've also done this with a ground lease. So that's the it's a fun pitch. It's like you're just showing up with something new that is at the very least intriguing.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, certainly. So when you came up with the idea of going with the CPACE guy, right, kind of trademarking that name. Was that modeled after anyone like did you see someone else in another industry?
Adam Lipkin:100% I forgot which one it was, but there was just so you immediately made a podcast or something I heard, but this that concept idea, people got to be known for something or you'll be known for nothing, right? So instead of being a generalist, and it's so counterintuitive, because you hear so many people be like, Oh, I'm going to turn down all this business. Like, if you say, like, let's say the person who says, All I do is multifamily development, over $75 million dollars, and they're like, Hey, listen to that same good for you. But it's not that you will say no to this, but you're going to focus on a certain niche. So I think that that's, like really a good concept. And I'm really connected with that. And I believe in that. I've seen a lot of success from that. And I've seen other people that have a lot of success from that. So I think that it's, that combined with seeing people that were like, it was kind of sticky, like, oh, the guy, the least guy that this guy, and it was kind of like, it was something that I was listening for. I think it might have been a buddy of mine, who at a at an event might have said you should put on your name tag, the CPACE guy, and it might have just clicked at that point where I'm like, I should just totally do that. I shouldn't you know, say it, they go out and look at CPACE, or just the CPACE guy. So there's almost this fun, because it also created so many fun conversations. Like I can't even say many times somebody will be like, is this the CPACE guy? And so you have all these great conversations right from the start where people are kind of like feeling more warmed up. I just prefer that to. So yeah, it was a little bit of a combination of looking for it. Probably having somebody ultimately just say like, You got to just run with it.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, it's such a great point. You know, I've heard the line that the smaller the niche, the greater the opportunity. Yeah, yeah.
Adam Lipkin:And there's riches and niches,
Mordecai Rosenberg:riches in niches. It's not. It's very counterintuitive. As a salesperson in the multifamily industry, you feel like you want to be doing Oh, we do everything I do. I do large loans. I do small loans I do. Affordable. I do student I do, mobile home, everything, right. But if you think about, let's say, you're at a dinner, right, you're at a big dinner and you find yourself sitting next to someone, right? And the guy says, Oh, what do you do? And you say, Oh, I'm in multifamily finance. Okay. That conversation may not go very far. Now, let's say you had a focus, though. And he said, I do just picking some random category and say, Oh, I do affordable housing. I specialize in tax credit deals in the southeast. and my specialty is really, you know, maximizing the bonds and tax credits to get you the highest development fee. That for clients, right. Now, that person--
Adam Lipkin:I help save you money for affordable or something like that, like help save.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Now, that guy now is either going to, if he is not in that industry, he's gonna say, okay, great, right. And that won't be of interest. But if that person is an affordable housing developer, he's gonna say, Oh, we really need to talk because that's exactly what I need help with. So I want to kind of move into the conversation about marketing. And maybe this is a good way to segue way into it. Because I feel like marketing is also marketing and email outreach. It's something that I feel like a lot of our industry doesn't do very well. And the best marketing, the way I've heard is that the best marketing, it doesn't only pull forward, that your best prospects, but it also pushes away.
Adam Lipkin:Polarizes and magnetizes Absolutely.
Mordecai Rosenberg:That's right. So can you talk about you were talking about pull marketing, you know how you do that with the school. But I'm curious how you do that with how you think about that, in general? Yeah.
Adam Lipkin:It's what we're doing right now. So, so one at the end of day people, right, it's all people people connecting. And if you have an ability to share more about you, you have more ability to express, you'll just magnetize people that connect with that they connect with like Wim Hof breathing and all this other stuff, right. So you have all these connection points by just putting yourself out there. So I love this more than anything right now, especially over the last year videos, great, audio, but giving people more of an ability to tune into you when you're doing with your podcast. What I started with my CPACE confidential show. It just it's yeah, it's great. I mean, I think what you're doing is amazing. It's modeling successful people and originations, I thought that was so needed. And there's a lot you learn on every episode. But people also get a chance to get to know who Mordecai is like. I mean, you learn a lot about the person, even just in how you interview and the things that you focus on. So it's an unbelievable opportunity for people to get to know you, when you put yourself out there like this. So I really find that and I find it fun, because it's nice when you have this ability these days to resonate with people, and let them almost self select, like people. I've been doing these things on LinkedIn for the last year and a half since COVID. Like I'm doing these like beach messages talking about mindset. I'm sure some people think it's very hokey. But I've also had some people say, oh, yeah, like the best message have a great attitude, or oh, I just, like, it's awesome. Like, it puts a smile on my face, like, good people that I like, and like, great. That's and so I, I totally believe that you want to polarize and magnetize certain people and really do that by letting people know who you are.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. So you're bringing up a very interesting point, which is, I think, in terms of magnetizing and polarizing as a salesperson, there's at least two ways that you can do it, you can do with your personality, because there's some people who it doesn't really matter what you're selling, but they just like you, right? And so if you put yourself out there in a certain way, I guess through LinkedIn, or through podcasts, or otherwise, maybe through the tone of your messaging, you can. Someone could say, oh, yeah, that seems like the kind of guy who I'd really like to meet or talk to, or they might say, That guy's whacked. And if I never run into him ever, that would just be fine with me. That's the individual. But the second thing is the product. Right? So you can say, if you're going out with a CPACE product, there are certain groups who you want to repel with your marketing, right? Someone who is, doesn't have a financing need is not planning on doing any kind of of your energy saving retrofits or construction. Right? That's that person, maybe in theory, you'd want to talk to them, but you're not going to your, your marketing is going to repel them. And you have to be okay with that.
Adam Lipkin:I would actually use the example of somebody like doing hotels, that's probably a better example, because I'm just not gonna do anything with it does with multifamily. That's just, that's a niche in itself. So I'm going to talk to people about not even just CPACE, I'm going to say, like, hey, why don't you you know, make your building more energy efficient, and boost your income and attract more tenants and get better financing. I'm going to not even maybe talk about CPACE, I'm just going to tell them, hey, we want you to do these cool things, to your building to make it, you know, safer and operate better and perform better position you. And then they'll say, oh, yeah, sounds good. And I'll maybe give them a hint or two. And a lot of times, it's not even directly CPACE. It's like a lot of the tech that you could do, that I may or may not even back into Oh, this there's these like good, sustainable products that are able to finance all this. And there's even ways we could do it through, you know, agency green program. So I think in general, like the niches the multifamily, but then it's just telling people in multifamily stuff. That's interesting. Hmm.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Right. So it's still coming in with something that's different, right? You're grabbing their attention.
Adam Lipkin:I'll tell you this right now. I'm fine. Like I I talked to people about climate tech and the things they could do to be able to, you know, lower their carbon footprint, because that's becoming a bigger focus for commercial tenants, but it's just on everyone's radar, here's how to be more energy efficient, here's why it matters, you know, you stand out. So I'm talking about things that probably very few people, if anybody are in my space, and they're interested in it, because they're like, hey, allow these guys to they want to invest in these companies, especially the bigger, you know, apartment players are looking at, what can I do in Prop tech, climate tech? So I love having something a little bit unique to talk about. And it's an area that I like, so you wanted to? I think it's helpful when it's that as well.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Sure, absolutely. So if I asked you the question, if we weren't to fill in the blank, right of that, you know, many originators multifamily salespeople do X, but really, they should be doing Y? Yeah, what do you what do you see a lot of salespeople get wrong in their approach.
Adam Lipkin:I think it is going after every so it's almost like finding the client and then just doing anything the client wants, when maybe if you start with what's the hot pocket of capital, that is really unique that I know how to do in a unique way, and then almost backing into who are the clients that are so well positioned to benefit from that. So I think that I think that's an interesting strategy I've seen, I had a real best top performer in the last cycle, who had you know, and I think you'll see it, I'm sure to play a HUD, for example, do one product really well and know who's the best fit for HUD. So I think starting with really mastery of a product, or in my case, I'm trying to do something like a product, that's an add on to a lot of these tried and true ones. And then being great with that, and then backing into the clients that would be able to benefit from and most I think that's something that there should be more of a focus on that rather than usually just any client, you know, or you know, anything for them.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Right? They call it like spray and pray.
Adam Lipkin:Yeah.
Mordecai Rosenberg:So right, it's like you're going out to everyone. And then you hope that you find that some of those people who end up being a good fit for your products, as opposed to thinking about specifically who the best people would be for your product and then targeting them?
Adam Lipkin:Yeah, like, I think being proactive, like, I could be very specific, like, I want to focus on multifamily developers that have at least a portfolio of a couple 1000 units, and are doing a mix, but building with an eye towards holding, and just be able to and ideally garden style, ideally above 75 million, or I could provide them 85% non recourse construction financing. And then using some of these unique tools, CPACE a grounding structure. I mean, it's very specific, and it's very proactive. That is now just focus for that. Other things may come up. But yeah, I think that's an interesting approach.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. That's, that's helpful. So what advice would you give someone starting out in the industry, you know, and you've, you came, ultimately came to this product, CPACE, right, but it takes it takes time. You know, most people starting out, you know, you're, first of all, you're feel thrilled that you just got a job at some company. And let's just take a lending business, for example. Right. So I don't know when I was applying for jobs out of college you know, when people talk to an investment bank There is sales and trading and there was research and there is I don't know, whatever, whatever. Like I had no idea what any of those things meant. Right. And probably most people applying for jobs out of college don't either. So all of a sudden they find themselves selling Fannie and Freddie loans, or maybe it's a debt fund, or maybe it's HUD loans. Right? So what advice would you give to someone about how to develop a niche? Within a product? Look, maybe you got maybe you have a product that's like better than any other product out there. And maybe that's one thing that you can think about is like, as someone who's interviewing, they should be thinking about what's better about your product or service than anybody else? But otherwise, like, how does a young person create a niche for themselves?
Adam Lipkin:Yeah, so I would say, so oftentimes, I'm actually doing like an anti CPACE, like where I might just say, what you're not a fit for it, I think it just be knowledgeable about whatever it is, doesn't have to be the best product, you just know a lot about it. And people want to know about it, right. But I think what I would do if I was coming out of college now, I think it's huge. I mean, it's like probably one of the most important things is try to get set up on a high performing team, add value. And I think a lot of people could add value, frankly, in the area we're talking about is be good with the outbound get leads, be good be a good lead gen person that could then bring in a team that's great at execution, I think that there's a lot of 20 Somethings that have some sense of how to be able to get out a message on any number of their social feeds on LinkedIn, you name it, I think that's going to be a bigger and bigger skill set. So I think if you could do that you go to like a top producer, at a team. Ideally, try to connect with somebody in advance that is a high performer in your market, and you do some research, go on LinkedIn, spend time studying them, and show them that you have, you know, spent time, here's how you could add value. I think that's one strategy. That's a very specific thing. Like if you're 20, something, tell somebody, you could show them how to get more business, like you're going to bring in more leads. I think that's one of the best things you could do. You don't know about products, but you could help them bring in more leads, and ideally filtered leads, it's a great value add for somebody that's just kind of coming out, and wants to learn the business and gets to do that too. But try to try to have something a little bit unique that you could bring to a high performer and, and be able to earn your way into the team.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, that's it's so interesting. You know, it kind of goes back to the question of who are you marketing to? You? Who are you selling to? Right, and all these companies, usually, it's when someone is applying for an internship or a job. They're reaching out to HR, they're applying through the website. And now you're one of 1000s of resumes that have been submitted to the program. Right. And it's hard, it's hard to get, you know, it's hard to stand out, it's hard to get a to get a chance to have an interview or to get from there, right. But any of these tops? First of all, if you get a job, where do you want to end up at a shop. I agree that if you are on a high performing team, and can actually see how the magic happens, like up close and personal, that's going to be incredibly invaluable, much more than, you know, a lot of other jobs that might be available in a company. But the second thing is that if that top performing salesperson sends the resume into HR and says, Hey, I'd like to hire this guy, as an intern, just like that, like that job is done. There's the interview processes is gonna be a lot, a lot shorter. So it's interesting to think about marketing to that top performer and just saying, look, I can help you. And if you can sell that top performer on, look, I can help. I'm the best researcher of leads, I can help you with, I'll manage your social media, right? All of a sudden, like if I if I ever had someone who reached out to me like like that, like, well, that's like a whole different situation than just saying, Oh, hey, can you look at my resume?
Adam Lipkin:I got a secret. It's not even just the top performer could be the chairman of a company that also would be great to be able to do that with. You could do it with the absolute top of a company by really adding value, and really showing up in a unique way. I think it just, it's, it's so not done. And especially nowadays, people have an ability, you just you go into what you just said it's a category of one you don't go through the track that everybody's doing, but you have to bring something and and you know, even if it's just really been there, and just knowing like, I'm just gonna listen for anything I could do, I'm just gonna show up, but I feel like that is just Yeah, I would I would recommend that to somebody right now to pick five or 10 of those people in the market where they want to be in, study them. Go on LinkedIn, look at the look in their activity, what they're checking out. Really get to know like, Who is this person? And and make it that that's the sale? Frankly, I think that's that's the one of the best sales you can make. That'll set you up for incredible success.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, yeah. And the bottom line is everyone's looking for opportunities. Right? So whether or not it's a salesperson, or it's a high performing salesperson, or it's the CEO of multifamily company, whose looking for acquisitions, everyone is looking for new business opportunities. Yes. So if you figure out what it is that they're looking for, you can show up, that's incredibly valuable. You know, I know you and I both have listened to, you know, a lot of marketing. We've read marketing books and podcasts. And you know, Dean Jackson, as we've discussed, but I remember one thing that Dean said is that you want to enter great marketing is you want to enter into the conversation that's already going on, in the person's mind. Right. And let's say it comes to a top salesperson, whenever they're what's going on in their, in their mind is, how can I capture more opportunities? How can I tap this social media thing to bring in more business? How can I, you know, free up my time, whatever it is, like there's certain things that are going on in their in their head? And same with with multifamily owner? And same with the principle of a charter school or anyone.
Adam Lipkin:I heard your dad. So it was an incredible episode you did with him. And it's one of these skill sets that I think this is the skill set is universal one. I think he said something to the extent of like, I could get into someone's mind and really hear and really listen for what they're saying. And I think that is probably the most important thing. You know, that communication. And I feel like, that's the ultimate when you could just be such a good listener listening actively for, what are they? What are they wanting? How do I like, be able to have them know that I get it. And I think when you could leave somebody feeling that they get it, they get me, there's just this space of trust, you caught through it immediately. There's all sorts of strategies, I think, when your way of being is such that it's just generally wanting to be there and show up in a way where you care. I think it's the most important thing.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. The visual that comes to mind for some reason is those games with the with the, at an arcade where they have like a lot of toys in the in there's an arm, right? And you have to move the arm and it goes down and insurance.
Adam Lipkin:Yeah, sure, right.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Well, they still they still haven't we go to Dave and Busters, they just now cost like, you know, $2 instead of a quarter, right to use, but still just as alluring to little kids. But I feel like, you know, when I interview people, I see this a lot that I feel like, they're kind of they're waiting, like, like that toy. And they're just hoping that that the arm comes down and kind of plucks them, you know, which it could be and whether or not it plucks you are another toy. It's just by chance. Right? And so what I don't hear really almost ever is someone pulling up reaching, putting their hand up and saying no, here's how I'm going to help you. Right? Not just saying, look, here's my resume. I'm an obviously an economics major or a history major. I had this internship, okay, fine. But I find myself deciphering their resume to try to understand how I could help them sell themselves to me. Right, as opposed to them picking up their hand and saying, look, here's what I can do for you. Yeah, so I think that's just a great, what a powerful piece of advice for Yeah, for interviewing for getting hired for sales for dating, you know.
Adam Lipkin:Show don't tell, right?
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. All right. Well, Adam, how can people learn more about CPACE and reach out to you if they want to learn more about the the program where we have opportunities?
Adam Lipkin:Yeah, swe didn't even get into- I just want to cover it. And, I joined up with Greystone a few months ago. And so doing everything that Greystone does best agency HUD, there's some new programs on the bridge side and construction that I'm really focused in on and CPACE, right, usually doing it through, you know, a couple different strategic relationships. But what I would say is, it's good to learn more about it. I'm active on LinkedIn, you can look me up as Adam Lipkin the CPACE guy, right. Leave that and, you know, there's a lot of good content and I'm happy to speak to anybody that wants to learn more about these new programs and how they might be able to help them in their business.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Awesome. Try to think about what guy I could be. You know,
Adam Lipkin:What do you think it would be?
Mordecai Rosenberg:I think I've got the Mishegoss Monday guy. Yeah. Always onto the new thing.
Adam Lipkin:Nice. Yeah Mishegoss Monday guy. Oh, yeah, this is where I was where you heard it first.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, but that was for for everyone who's not Adam. I was saying before how my wife likes to joke that every month, every few months, every few weeks on Monday morning, I'll have some new thing and maybe it'll be Wim Hof breathing or meditation or journaling or cold showers or cold plunge. I just put one of those in.
Adam Lipkin:We got to figure out what is your morning routine? Are you are you up at 4:30? And when do you get it going?
Mordecai Rosenberg:So my I've I used to have an early morning routine. I used to be like a five in the morning. 530 in the morning guy. This year, I've been trying to focus more on sleep. So I'll wake up at six. I used to go to the gym with my brother at five in the morning. And now I just feel like if I can get that extra hour of sleep I'd rather take the extra hour asleep. So I usually wake up at six I'll go to synagogue and pray at least a few times a week when I don't have my my kids there. I come back. I'll journal, I usually have some book that I'm reading is some kind of inspirational books. So right now I'm reading a book called Letting Go. Okay, which was recommended to me by Aaron Hargrove phenomenal book. I've read like two or three pages of that. I'll do three pages of journaling, which is just stream of consciousness. Just kind of
Adam Lipkin:anything on the line.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yep. It's a practice called Morning Pages.
Adam Lipkin:Yeah, sure. I was gonna ask you if you had like a, like a certain like questions that you think about.
Mordecai Rosenberg:there's some prompts, but it's from a book called The Artists Way. Yeah. But it's practices the Morning Pages. Then I'll do the Wim Hof breathing. And meditate, you know, for for 20 minutes.
Adam Lipkin:A lot of similarities, my friend, I'll tell you, I got the whip off in there. I got the journaling. I do like questions in the morning. What are you grateful for? What would make today great. I mean, it's a lot, a lot of similarities.
Mordecai Rosenberg:And then there's exercise, you know, depending on it might be somewhere in between there. Sometimes it'll be after but it could be weight training or running or peloton or tennis.
Adam Lipkin:Today it was CrossFit day.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Nice. Nice. Well, Adam, it's been great. Getting to know you have enjoyed all of our conversations. And I appreciate you coming on the podcast. This has been really enjoyable.
Adam Lipkin:Yeah. Mordecai. Thank you so much. Really, really appreciate it. Pleasure.
Mordecai Rosenberg:All right. Thanks, Adam. Take care