Origination
Join us as we delve into the world of multifamily and commercial real estate, engaging in insightful interviews with industry-leading loan originators and salespeople. Discover the secrets that set apart these top performers from the competition as we uncover the strategies and skills that drive their success.
Origination
Episode 20: Jeffrey Morris, the Founder of MSF Real Estate Capital, Discusses Selling Yourself, Working Past Failures, Future Success, and Leaving a Legacy
Jeffrey Morris is the founder of MSF Real Estate Capital, which was acquired by Walker and Dunlop in 2020. Jeff has been in the industry for 30 years, and has been a salesperson for longer than that. In this episode, he covers how he learned sales from really a young age and learned to build rapport by establishing commonality with the person he's talking to. I hope you enjoy this episode as much I did.
TIMESTAMPS
2:08- 14:42 : Early Sales Experience, How to Sell Yourself and How to Approach Conversations
16:25- 20:56 : Speaking Success Into Existence
20:56- 25:38 : Working Past Failure and Insecurity
26:00-27:50 : Have You Ever Fired a Client?
27:50 - 35:55 : Nature vs Nurture, and Confidence--Who Has It?
37:00-45:00 : How Else Can Someone Succeed After Origination?
48:00-53:00- What Legacy Do You Hope To Leave Behind in This Industry?
lenders, market, people, loan, client, equity, selling, deals, screen protectors, year, calls, rates, business, borrower, easy, long, sales, chase, interest rates, debt
Hi, it's Mordecai, and welcome back to the Origination podcast, where we talk to the top originators and salespeople in the multifamily industry to try to understand what separates the top performers from the rest of the pack. On this episode, I'll be speaking with Jeff Morris. Jeff is the founder of MSF, real estate capital, which was acquired by Walker and Dunlop in 2020. Jeff has been in the industry for 30 years, and has been a salesperson for longer than that. You'll hear on the conversate in our conversation about how he learned sales from really a young age and learned how to build rapport by establishing commonality with the person he's talking to. This was a really enjoyable conversation for me, and I think you'll gain a lot from it. Without further ado, let's talk to Jeff. Jeffrey Morris, it's a delight to have you. Welcome to the Origination podcast.
Jeff Morris:Well, thank you, Mordecai. I'm glad to be here.
Mordecai Rosenberg:It's good to have you here. So Jeff, you've had an incredible career in the industry. I thought we might start by turning back the clock. And going back to your early sales experience. So you're clearly you're a salesperson, you're an entrepreneur, you've had your own business for decades. But if you thought back to your earliest memories of selling something, yeah, I wonder what would come to mind. And that could be, it could be in grade school, high school, college after but what comes to mind as far as the earliest sales experience?
Jeff Morris:Sure. I grew up in a family that that owned a large, private business in the sterling silver industry. And so as a kid, I was surrounded by a father who was a superstar salesman. And, you know, I learned from him the art of selling yourself first. So my first real job per se, was probably not much more than 10 or 11 years old, and the class eight going around the neighborhood and selling my services to my neighbors to cut their yard to do work around their house all that to make money. I was I was successful at that, actually. For a 1011 year old, in 19. Oh, that's probably like 1968, 69. I had more money than most my other 10 year old friends.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, I'm sure. So he said, the first thing to learn how to sell is to sell yourself. So can you explain that? Can you elaborate on what that means, Exactly?
Jeff Morris:Sure. So to me selling myself is all the human dynamics, physical appearance, communication skills, and communication technique. As I started moving from 10-11 to 15, or 16, I had the genetic good fortune of looking older. So I was probably like the first kid in seventh grade to be shaving. By the time I was 15, I looked like I was 18. And so I knew to be successful, I had to be more mature than I really was chronologically, so I had that advantage going for me. My dad was helpful enough in my early career to talk to me about things that are important in communication. So things that still remember, communications, two thirds of listening 1/3 of talking. Communication is looking your other party in the eyes as often as possible. Communication isn't just agreeing, but just listening carefully, and sometimes disagreeing. If you disagree, but not just politely agreeing to agree. And, things that are important in communication like body language, speaking clearly and actually speaking with intent and purpose. Those are all things that he taught me and like I said he was not a great businessman, but he could sell anything. And so I had that great fortune as I think about that. Unfortunately, I think I adapted a little bit more my business skills than he might have. But from a selling perspective, those are the kinds of things I learned.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Those are some heavy lessons for a 10 year old. Yeah, to think about listening, first of all, just to learn how to listen as a 10 year old is, is big, but to learn eye contact, the idea of listening over agreeing. That's amazing if those things resonated with you as as a 10 year old.
Jeff Morris:Yeah, the expression that I use today, when I meet people that are young, in my businesses, they're wise beyond their years. And not that I'm trying to extol any kind of great virtues on my own young life, but I was driven. And I really wanted to succeed, because I saw, I had a wonderful father who succeeded, I had an overwhelmingly successful grandfather who I idolized in business, he was very wealthy, substantial businessman in Toledo, who achieved everything on his own. And so I wanted to be like that. And so I was, even though I was athletically driven to, I was driven to be successful in the business and business at a really early age. And I knew that I had to really pay attention to the things that my father and grandfather helped me with. And then as I moved through my early business career, the key business mentors that continued to shape my thinking and my and influence me.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, that's remarkable. So you mentioned aside 10 years old, so you're cutting lawns and helping your neighbors with, you know, maybe with snow and in in related work around the neighborhood. What comes after that, let's say you mentioned in your teenage years that that looking older, helped, what kind of sales jobs did you have? into your teenage years?
Jeff Morris:Yeah. So I went, there was an old discount store, the name was Wells. Wells became Kings, which eventually morphed into Zehrs, which, that's not even around. But I went to work at 15, I think was the first time for that. And I was working in the stockroom in the back, but also taking things out to the floor to stock shelves, things like that. And I kind of wanted to be more important than just stocking shelves. So I took it upon myself, when I saw somebody looking around aimlessly and would ask if I could help them. And I was kind of using that. Today, I can look back at that I wasn't trying to teach myself grew myself in consciously. But subconsciously, I was kind of building my own stick per se as a salesperson asking some guy or some lady, if I could help them find something all that and not that I was even a commission salesperson. I was just probably a $2 an hour employee or whatever it was back then. And so that was my first real experience interacting with people like that.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. So I'm curious if we can find some common theme. So let's like dig in a little bit. So let's say like when you're going back to this, that 10 year old Jeff, yeah, so you're knocking on your neighbor's door. Right, a grown up, opens the door. And what do you say? Like, how do you how do you approach that conversation?
Jeff Morris:Yeah, I'm very direct. My dad told me that. You want to be direct with what you want, not home and beat around the bush and all of that and act wimpish about it. And so when I remember when Lester zobelle son, who's my first, I still remember that name of all things, you know, 54 years of knocking on Lester's Allison's door and saying hi, Mr. Rizal Wilson. My name is Jeff Morris. I live a block and a half away. And I'm building up my business cutting yards and doing work for all the other neighbors. And I'd like to add you as one of my customers. Now he was my first one. Okay. But as far as he knew, and I don't know how I even, that's how I've been in my life in business too. Like, I created this aura that I had other people already engaged in business with me. And he signed on right away and I was cutting his yard within a day or two that, yeah.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Wow. So being direct, so is one thing it's just come out right out and ask for the business.
Jeff Morris:Yeah, my Dad said,"ask for the order." That was the terms he used when I was growing up, ask for the order.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. So let me fast forward a little bit, then we'll we'll we'll come back to it. But I'm curious decades later, you're in the multifamily industry. I grew up in sales, I was a, an originator a debt originator for 10 plus years selling mostly FHA loans, but also agency. I always felt very self conscious about being direct in a sales approach, because I felt that calling someone up and saying, "Hey, would you like to refinance your mortgage", I kind of felt like saying, Hey, would you like to change your cable provider or your long distance provider? You know, it felt like, why would they ever want to stay on the phone with me, if I was just offering just another cable service, right. So I always felt like I had to- my initial approach, I would say would not be direct, I would try to get into figure out what they would want to talk about, right? What the client would want to talk about, based on research. And think about an opportunity that I might be able to bring, and then use that as a way to first of all, keep them on the phone beyond, you know, 15 seconds, and then get into a conversation and then bring the conversation back around. So I wonder what your experience was, you know, in the multifamily space in commercial real estate selling a debt product? Do you still did that strategy? Stay consistent throughout? Or did it have to, you know, take any twists and turns?
Jeff Morris:Sure. So first I started in this business at a really young age, having to be a revenue generator, or being a salesperson. And so I knew that if I wasn't successful, that I wasn't gonna make money and the bills weren't going to get paid. And so I knew that kind of my neck was on the line right from the outset. And so I was driven to make sure that I found a way to complete the sale per se. I would, wherever possible, I made a point of being in front of a person as opposed to on a phone, because it's very easy for a person to dismiss you quickly on a phone so hard to get rid of you when they're looking at you. I always established a ground rule or groundwork have something in common first? One of my late business partners used to say that I could always find a way to be indirectly related to something to that party that I'm talking to, that I forget what the expression is where it's, you know, three, three steps from-
Mordecai Rosenberg:--Separation.
Jeff Morris:Three degrees of separation, right. And so I quickly found, when I talked to somebody how they may have known somebody out that may have known somebody that, hey, that happens to be a cousin of mine, or they, you know, my best friend's cousin would have some sort of dialog that created that level. And then once I established that, then I established tried to establish some sort of bond, non business, be it sports. Later on, when I had kids, start having kids, the kids thing, but I try to establish that, but then I always would try to bring all that back centered to the purpose at hand, which was talking about financing. And sometimes when these were more blind calls, and that was usually by phone, I had to narrow or condensed all that quickly, to get to the point of why I'm calling because I didn't want them to be worn out on the phone call. But I think being direct was born out of necessity, and having to prove to get successful. And I thought that if I it's sometimes it's a better to be polite and quick than rude and quick, if that makes sense. Well, I was trying to be as extremely polite as I could when I talk to somebody. I'm truly be caring in my dialogue, and sincere and friendly and I think those things always tended to break the ice, soften the other party enough to have a conversation with me, and then go to the task.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, yeah. One thing interesting that occurs to me is that you said that the first thing you would do is try to establish commonality. Right. So if it was your three degrees of separation, or sports, common interest, I noticed that When you were describing your very first pitch to Mr. Davidson, that you started out by saying, Hi, I live in the neighborhood, I live a block and a half away. Right? So that probably without even thinking about it, but you're establishing commonality, even at that point right before if you said, Hey, I'm I live five towns over you I'm trying to grow my business, you don't want to give me your lawn to cut. They may not have been as, that individual may not have been as receptive as hearing you say, Oh, I live a block and a half away from you. Like we have that in common.
Jeff Morris:Right? Yeah, no question about it, that that becomes it's, I think, another linchpin of success with Mr. Dolphin, that's no different than what my success was when I built our business was other people have already signed on. Initially, there's has to be somebody there has to be that first person. But once that first person signed on, it becomes, you know, more factual, certainly, and easier to discuss. But I had to have that first person on so I had to, I hate to say this, but had to fabricate that first person being on Yeah, Establishes credibility.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. Well, it's, I forget what movie was from or book where they're saying that he said all his stories are true. Just not all of them have happened yet? Sometimes you have to talk as if it's already, it's already the case. You know, I just saw a movie over the weekend called King Richard, which is about the the Williams sisters, Serena and Venus, and their, their their father. And it was remarkable. From the time that they were kids, he would talk about them as saying, you're going to be the top, you're going to be the top player in the world, right. And you're going to get a million dollar check. Right. And, and they haven't gotten that yet. But they were, they created that world by, talking about it and creating that narrative. So I think there's something to be said about that, that even before that first first client, if you see yourself as successful, and it's like, you know, you're someone who has a lot of clients, even if it hasn't happened yet.
Jeff Morris:And you have to, you have to have confidence in yourself. And, you know, early on, if you haven't had successes, it's hard to have confidence. So I really, I agree that, that then becomes a little bit of a false confidence. But nonetheless, you have to believe in yourself. And I've always believed that I could be successful. Whether I'm selling financing to somebody or any other product I would sell, I had to believe I was going to be successful. And I did. And that's really critical. And again, it goes back to all the elements I talked about in terms of, you know, people judge judge you by like a book. So you have to look successful, you have to act successful. And if you do, people will buy into the idea that you are successful. I mean, when I was in my 20s I wanted everybody to believe that I've already had 10 years of success. Now I looked a little older, so it helped there. But even though I couldn't really afford it, in my early 20s, I was driving around in a Lincoln towncar. Okay, now that my dad drove around a Lincoln Town Car, and he could afford it, back then that was the car that was established that you were a successful salesperson, one of the cars. And I mean, I remember scrounging around enough money every month to be able to pay for my Lincoln towncar I was early years, I didn't have a lot of money. And I wanted to, I didn't dress like my contemporaries in jeans and all that. I in fact, my wife would tell you today that once we started dating in the late teens, I eventually married her, I dressed like an old man. I wore khaki pants and blue shirts and ties at 20s. But I wanted everybody to know that I was successful just by my appearance. Yeah, so that that plays into it too. And that makes you feel better. You feel better about yourself.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, you know, before when you said that your father told you that. The first thing you have to sell is you have to sell yourself. When you said that there was another interpretation that I thought one could take from it, which is that before you can sell someone else, you have to sell yourself. Right? And you have to feel right, if you're not going to buy it, if you're not going to buy yourself, then no one will right. So I think some doing these things. Yeah, the towncar and dressing like it. And just getting into the right mindset, you have to feel that you can be successful, but that's not really easy. And I wonder how you did that, like, as a 20 year old? How do you do get into that mindset? I mean, it's just so easy to get discouraged. Not everyone has a Mr. Zack Wilson as their first call it that signs up on the spot. There's a lot of hung up phones and slammed doors that oftentimes come first.
Jeff Morris:Yeah, yeah. So I mentioned having mentors. I'm a big believer, as a salesperson, you have to have people to inspire you, and people to drive you and coach you. And so I had that very early on it. I was 19 years old, and secured a real estate license. Before I got in the mortgage business, and went to work in the residential real estate business. And the person that I worked for was a quote unquote, old guy, today looking back, and he probably was in his 50s. And now I'm older than that, but he was an old guy to me. And he brought me in his office. And he immediately took me under his wing. And I knew then, that if I listened to the things that he taught me, that I could be successful, because he was very successful. And so I wanted to emulate him. And the things he told me from an education perspective, read the Wall Street Journal every day. And I still do that every day. He told me how to get engaged with people through functions, you know, I was 20 years old, going to rotary. I don't even know if there's a rotary around anymore. But I went to rotary meetings, and sat there and tried to meet older guys who had been in their 40s and 50s. So I had a mentor that helped shape me to be, again, more mature than my years. And as you get around people, you either have to sink or swim and I wanted to swim. And so for me to do that I had to rise up and get overcome any insecurities. I might have felt early on, and and believe in myself. And from there, it made it that much easier to sell myself and eventually sell financing to clients. As I got into my career.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. Do you remember feeling that insecurity? And like, Do you ever feel and get in your head or your body and doing something with it? Or you're just, you know, dismissing it? Like, what did you do? Like, how do you how do you get beyond those insecurities?
Jeff Morris:I was pretty secure with myself in a lot of respects. I think that well, so I my first real sale, I would say, of a product per se, as opposed to a service well, as mentioned was when I got licensed as a real estate person at age 19. So at 19 years old, I was selling homes. So that's not a small little sale item. I mean, that's not like selling a pen to somebody that's selling a pretty substantial thing to someone else. And I, my first sale, I still can remember it was a guy that came into town from Chicago. He was an accountant transferred in as a controller for a manufacturer in our area. And he was in his 30s. And he had a family and and this was an important thing for him. And I knew that I had to put myself in his position, and empathize with his importance of how he was buying this house. And I had to make sure it went right. I was not going to screw that up. And so when I had questions, I asked my mentor, his name was Dave Evans, who's since passed. You know how to take care of things. If I was uncertain, unsure, I go back and ask questions. And I learned quickly what I needed to do. And fortunately, I had a person on the other end buying who probably understood that I was young and was willing to ride along with me and be patient with me. And we eventually transacted that first sale.
Mordecai Rosenberg:That must have felt pretty good.
Jeff Morris:It was incredibly rewarding. I mean, I can tell you I mean, I remember a lot of small things from way back, that was a $89,000 house and 19. Well, everyone, probably like 76 or 77. And, you know, the Commission's then were 6%. So, you know, the $5,500 Commission give or take, and I was about to make, you know, a couple $1,000 in 1977 hours, pretty good earnings for the first time out.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah that's great. So if you're, I'm sure you've also had, you've had lots of different kinds of clients, right. And you probably have had some clients that you feel like, gosh, if like, everyone could be like, like this person, that'd be great. Right? And you probably have other clients who you felt that, you know, if they'd be the next one, they should just take their business elsewhere and leave, you know, leave you to your piece. How do you think about interviewing clients? And have you ever? Well, first, I'll ask you, have you ever fired a client?
Jeff Morris:No. Again, I'll revert back to my father, one of my father's sayings was, the best revenge is to take their money. So in the sense, in a sense of firing, if you fire, you terminate the relationship all together. So rather than be upset about something, or be frustrated, and just willing to walk away, my answer is, stick to it somehow, some ways try to stomach every bit of frustration and anger you may have, and know that the revenge you're gonna take is that person's money. Honestly, I can honestly say, in my, in the finance business of 40 years, I've not kicked a client to the curb, and fired them.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Hmm. Have you ever decided not to take their next deal?
Jeff Morris:No, I can say that I've found ways to have someone else, that someone else that works for me, helped me take on that transaction, i.e.i, was pushing that my problem off to someone else who works for me and let them get the brunt of the abuse. But at the end of the day, we got the sale.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Right. So if you're, one thing that that does seem to come up is that you had a natural sense of confidence growing up. Yeah. And I wonder some people have that, and some people don't. Right. And I wonder if you said that, that a good originator is, is it? How much is nature? And how much is nurture? Can you? Is it something that you feel like you just either you're born with or you're not? Or do you think it's something that you can develop over time?
Jeff Morris:Yeah, I'm now having the advantage of a lot of years and having originators work for me. I do believe that a great deal of it is nature, your DNA. You can teach so much from a educational perspective. You can coach to a degree, but you still have to have that. That person has to have that innate skill and that innate level of swagger in them to be successful. And I've hired people who have not had any of the skills, kind of like drafting an athlete in the NBA, and you don't know what position is going to be. But he's got all the skills and athleticism you ever want. You'll find a way to turn him into that point guard or power forward or whatever it might be.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, yeah, I think it's that fire in the belly, that you have to that is maybe one of the things that you look for, but how do you identify that. Like when you're interviewing someone, how do you get a sense of whether or not they have that? That spark? Is it just something that you feel, but just kind of a gut feeling or Is there anything that you look for, in particular?
Jeff Morris:So I like to be sold myself. So, as I'm interviewing somebody, I like to see them doing to me, when I did the others in terms of selling their selves and seeing the confidence, that swagger, that eye to eye communication. See that they have a degree of both intelligence but articulate if they can communicate? Well, I can teach them what to say. Okay. So I was able to quickly take interviews with people that would be prospective originators, that would have tremendous education backgrounds. And I could look at them and I could say, well, you know what, that's a very smart person. But if they couldn't do all the things I wanted them to do that I could tell they would not be successful, originating business. And conversely, some of my best people that I've had worked for me. I think they were intelligent. I'm not dismissing that, but their skills of communicating were really good right from the start. And I knew that I could hire them. And they could be successful if given the opportunity. Hmm.
Mordecai Rosenberg:So as far as their communication skills, like how much of that is, you know, I've also heard people say that, like sales is sales, parts is parts and they give them anything to sell, and they can sell it. I haven't found that to really be the case. 100% In our industry, like, just because you're good at selling tires, doesn't mean you're gonna be good at selling Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac loans. Right? So what is, but you can still have that fire in the belly? So what's kind of the balance of like, intelligence of what else are you looking for in terms of how they communicate?
Jeff Morris:Passion? Yeah, I, if you came into me, looking to be an originator my business, I want to find out what you understand about the real estate industry. And if you're passionate about it, and if you want to be ultra successful, not just in originating loans. But I do believe that people that are successful in originating loans ultimately do morph into becoming successful people owning real estate. So that was always a little bit of a hidden agenda for me is finding out what the person's long term goals were. And if their goals were to just, for the next number of years, originate loans and never get past that. I knew that they were going to be successful from a earned, earnings perspective. But I wanted them to aspire to be wealthy too. And so they had to understand that real estate was a little bit of an avenue using their success and earnings to succeed as a business person and owning real estate, so had to be passionate about getting to that level. Hmm.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Did you find that, that was common? That, that was, because until- I feel like a lot of people until you would say that, thought they might not mean they just know that they want to get a job, or that they can, where they can make a lot of money. Yeah, to make the connection of Oh, and then I'm going to buy real estate. How common Do you find that?
Jeff Morris:Um, so most people that, that I've interviewed over the years, if they're young, they probably have come out of like, Ohio State University's real estate program, and probably didn't quite understand what the, the opportunity of an originator could lead to. So when they came and sat down with me, I would, in a small way, explained to them, where the business has allowed me to go as an originator first and as a business, an originator and owner of a business, to growing a business to allow me to do other things with the success that I've had. And I could tell in those conversations if that person didn't aspire to that level, I could tell pretty quickly it'd be hard to convince. But that's where they needed to go. Other people came to me, but because they had a background, that might be a family member that was successful, or they may have heard about some degree of success that that I may have had, or somebody else they may have known, and saw the mortgage business as an avenue and a tool to being successful. Overall.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Mm hmm. So, do you still see that that's the case, let's say if someone is coming to you today, and they're a college student, or they're going to graduate soon, you're now there's been? Companies are, I mean, it's still a fragmented industry. But yeah, there's been a lot of consolidation. What would you tell someone coming out of school as far as like, where they should set their? Like, what horizon? Should they set their eyes? On? As far as thinking about where? Where they can go with us?
Jeff Morris:Yeah, that's a great question. First of all, I think that, if they don't already know, some of that answer, before I asked the question, then they probably don't have all of the innate drive to get there. I mean, they have to come in the door with a degree of drive to be super successful, regardless of whether they're originating loans or selling shoes. And so then it's a matter of how do you get there, as opposed to "can I get there", they have to have that confidence really get there. From that standpoint, I think it's really just helping them understand early on, what success can mean to them, both financially, if they're successful, but confidence wise and emotionally. And if they can continue to enjoy success, they're going to get more and more confident. And then be driven to not just have a great earnings potential, but then aspire to the next level of how to be a good business person. That doesn't necessarily mean no good business person has to be an investor in real estate. But a good business person has to be an investor with their earnings. Overall, I mean, maybe that they're investing something beyond real estate. But I think that goes hand in hand.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yet so that transition, though, is not always so easy for sale. Like lots of times salespeople are good at selling, but may not be as good as at managing. So, what, how, what kind of alternative paths? Have you seen people take as far as like, you know, if they if someone is alright, maybe they've been a successful originator for 10 years or 15 years, right. Now, they want to take it somewhere. What alternative? I mean, there's, I guess, there's identifying real estate to buy, but they may not be, they may not be looking to operate real estate. So how did you think about, well, how did you think about your own path? As you were? At what point did you say, alright, I'm good at selling now I'm gonna start my own thing. Yeah, what were you looking to achieve with that?
Jeff Morris:Yeah, so that actually goes way back in my career to when I first got my real estate license. And I was bitten by the real estate bug at 19. And I knew that I didn't want to be selling houses as a livelihood. But I could see people around me early on owning homes, owning houses, and renting them out and renting apartments, doing all that. I saw that real early. So I kind of got a better glimpse of that, that most would, and knew that that was the path. So as I started having success in the mortgage business, I was able to do simple things, and it's in the Midwest might be easier than other regions of the country where values are different, but I was able to buy more properties. And manage those myself or eventually have somebody else that's working for me doing that. Eventually, then as those became a little bit of a nuisance because I was too involved. I would start becoming more of a an investor, when you're talking to people that you're financing real estate with. They tend to be always bringing on investors. And so as I found the opportunity to finance somebody that was always looking for an investor, I was never hesitant to say, if I trust that person, I'm willing to put some my own money that I'm making from this business into your real estate deal. So that allowed me that avenue gave me that avenue to and I encourage that. Sometimes some people may not encourage it, but I do encourage it. And I think if you're financing real estate, developers, and investors, the best way that you can get educated is to put yourself to a degree in their shoes. And understand what it takes to operate properties, what it understands to take risks, what it would take, eventually, you know, find loan commitments, put up with deposits to get loans. I've done all that. So I understand the psyche of a borrower, because I've been in their shoes. Hmm.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Right. And then you get to the commonality, again, right, because now when you're when you're talking to the next prospective client, you can also tell them that you've that you really understand what it's like to be in their shoes.
Jeff Morris:Yeah, absolutely. And I've always tried to keep separation in the sense that I don't want a client to look at me in a different light, I want to look at me as a financier. But also understand that I have had exposure and understand the shoes that they put on in the morning and go out to take on their their role. I don't want my involvement in the real estate world, as an investor to Jay there thanks, thinking or make any sense make them feel anything in securities, either. I mean, I try to keep that quiet.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, that makes sense. Also, sometimes they feel like, maybe you're like tensional competition, or, you know, which is silly, because it's a very large world. But yeah, you have some of that. How do you how do you continue to stay motivated? You know, you've had a lot of success in your career, you've built a business, you sold your business? What continues to drive you to sign up the next deal and can keep going? Keep moving forward?
Jeff Morris:Yeah. So I use the word passion early on. And if you have genuine passion, in what you do, that's not a, that's not a switch that turns on and off. And so I, I don't my day doesn't start or end any different than when, then, you know, 35 years ago, I get up early, I get going, I'm focused on what I have to do. And it's not about the money. It's about the drive to succeed, the ability to talk for me to stay deeply engaged. And sheer enjoyment out of what I do, I mean, it you have to enjoy this business. Because there are rough patches. I've been through three or four, maybe five serious corrections in the industry. And you have to be prepared, mentally and emotionally, for the downside and be just as passionate. When things aren't going great. Just as when they are going great. It's easy when it's going great. I mean, you're always energized, and you're always thriving on the next, the last success. So you have to, you have to live it.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. So you mentioned going through a number of different cycles. Yeah, it seems like this current cycle that we're in, you know, it's been you the pricing has just been so crazy. Cap rates, that we've had, three handled cap rates, in Columbus in the Midwest, and all the cit, secondary and tertiary markets. What do you make of that? You know, how are you? What are you seeing from your clients? As far as how they're approaching acquisition? Do you? Are your are your clients buying in this market? Or are they on the sidelines? What are you seeing?
Jeff Morris:Yeah, I'm being in the business for a lot of years, you get to see the different cycles and understand whether this is the worst one we've lived through or whether one of the other ones was the worst ones. And you have to believe that in the long term, that a lot of this stuff levels out and settles out somewhat evenly. So today, I think that you have to be as committed to moving forward and transacting business, whether the cap rates are three and a half percent, or whether a year or two ago, they were four and a half percent or 20 years ago, they were seven and a half percent. When they were seven and a half percent, that they had to come off of eight and a half percent, right. And so if you just keep moving forward and understand that things will tend to level themselves out. You're not necessarily following the herd and making a mistake. You're doing what the times dictate and justify.
Mordecai Rosenberg:So does that mean that you keep on buying? Like, at three, if the markets that three out of three and a half cap rate then you just buy at a three and a half cap rate?
Jeff Morris:Yep. I'm a believer in that. And, and without spending much time and my involvement, as I mentioned, the world of being an investor, I will tell you that as an investor, I have invested in real estate deals. This past year and a half or so during COVID, two years almost, as cap rates have compressed in real estate, partnerships, where those are the values? And I have no I have no, no apprehension about that whatsoever.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, I guess what that speaks to in some ways is, I guess a strong faith in some ways in the markets, right, that the markets will work themselves out. Yeah, but I think what that speaks to is really a great amount of faith and confidence in the intelligence of people in the markets. And that somehow that if they work themselves out, that figures it adjusts. And if as long as you keep on moving with it, no things have to figure themselves out in the end.
Jeff Morris:Especially in the real estate industry. Time fixes things. Okay. So if you've made a choice that maybe isn't great, because I'm gonna call it a wrong choice, but in great for the time, over time in the real estate business, there tends to be rent growth, still, there still tends to be somebody else out there to buy that investment property that you may have maybe overpaid for. And maybe you're not going to get a return. That's what you initially hoped for, but you're going to get a return. But if you're actively engaged, and continuously being involved as an, you know, an investor per se, you're going to hit singles, doubles and month triple or a homerun?
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. That's great. All right. Well, two closing questions, Jeff. So when it is thinking about like, legacy, yeah, I'm sure you'll you've got a lot of years left and will be if I don't plan on on retiring, but if you thought about legacy that you might leave in the industry. If we asked kind of clients, why they worked with you why they liked working with you, is one question. The second question is if we asked your your employees, why they liked working with you, you know, what do you hope each of them will say?
Jeff Morris:Sure. So from my clients perspective, one thing that I will tell you is that from the start of my career and the start of the business, that eventually was sold to Walker and Dunlop and I started in 1984. Because I was always the new kid on the block at the beginning, I took on more difficult transactions, and never have shied away from my whole career of taking on the more complex, difficult transactions. And what I wanted to show clients was, I work harder than the next guy. I worked harder than anybody else to fulfill their needs. And I think if you asked our clients, oh, how, what made us successful in their eyes, it's because we outwork our competition. We took on more difficult transactions. And it wasn't a problem if I needed to spend time in the office at six in the morning or 11 at night on phone calls, and on vacations. And I hate to say that because it did put my family's time in second place and that those are things you can't get back. But I prioritize their needs in such a way that they knew that nobody else is going to work. harder to take care of their needs. And I spent time understanding the complexities of their properties and the needs of those financings and how to solve it correctly. With my employees for first, I always believed you hire the best you can, you trust them, you empower them, and then more importantly, reward them. And when I was making the decisions to how I rewarded my employees, I would tell you that everybody that works for me, that has worked for me, they were, they were rewarded, at or above a standard of the industry. I want them all to, to not just feel appreciated, but feel rewarded beyond where others might take them to, because I put that much value in them. And so my originators that work for me, or my underwriters, or my closers, we had, we had discretionary bonuses when I had up to 1520 people working for me, bonuses were discretionary. And I had employees sitting across from me in my office privately in tears, because they couldn't believe how big of a bonus they have. And I wanted them to know that that wasn't that wasn't because they're just nice persons because they work really hard and they deserve it. I shared the wealth. And I'm a big believer in sharing the wealth. I've been very successful. And fortunate. Fortunately, have done okay. From a financial perspective. I wanted everybody around me to do better than just okay.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, that's, that's beautiful. I mean, the combination of working as hard as you can for the customer. Yeah. Which also means that your team is working as hard as they can for the customer. But then also, when everyone that when you when you everyone wins. Yeah. And it feels like they're part of the team. It's a beautiful combination. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jeff, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. I've really gained a lot. Yeah. And I think I'm gonna think about the story of that 10 year old Jeff, you know, selling the lawn mower service to your neighbor for a long time. That's a great visual.
Jeff Morris:Lester Solveson.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Lester Solveson.
Jeff Morris:Rest his soul. My first client ever.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, yeah. Who knew? Who knew what he was starting?
Jeff Morris:That's right. That's right.
Mordecai Rosenberg:That's right.
Jeff Morris:Yep.
Mordecai Rosenberg:All right. Jeff, thank you again, and we'll be in touch.
Jeff Morris:Thank you very much. Have a great Thanksgiving.
Mordecai Rosenberg:You too. Take care.