Episode 41: Mike Kemether, Executive Vice Chair at Cushman & Wakefield

In this episode, Mike Kemether, Executive Vice Chair at Cushman and Wakefield, discusses his engineering background and how he applies engineering principles to sales in commercial real estate. He emphasizes collaboration and building a team to provide the best service to clients, and shares his perspective on the state of the real estate market and the importance of strong partnerships.

lenders, market, people, loan, client, equity, selling, deals, screen protectors, year, calls, rates, business, borrower, easy, long, sales, chase, interest rates, debt

Transcript

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:15

Hey, it's Mordecai. Welcome back to the Origination Podcast, where we speak to the top salespeople in the commercial real estate industry to try to understand what separates the top performers from the rest of the pack. On this episode, I'll be speaking with Mike Kemether, Executive Vice Chair at Cushman and Wakefield. Historically, some of the most successful salespeople in our industry have operated as lone wolf. They may have a support team that they built around them. But fundamentally, there's one key rainmaker on the team. Mike has figured out how to break that mold. There are limitations to operating as a lone wolf. For one thing, you can only be expert at so much. If you know one particular region or market and your client wants to be buying in another market. How can you provide them with the best expertise, Mike has figured out how to build a substantial team of over 100 partners, that all work together to provide the best service to their clients. And their success has been remarkable. I think you'll really enjoy hearing about Mike's approach to the business. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. So without further ado, let's speak with Mike. All right, Mike Kemether, it's wonderful to have to finally have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining.

Mike Kemether: 1:42

Hey, Mordecai. Thank you for having me. I'm excited about it.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 1:47

Me too. Well, let's start Mike, with a question that I like to ask, do you think back to early sales experience. Anything that comes to mind, it could be when you were just a kid in high school, college, after college. But what anything comes to mind in when you think about like earliest sales experience?

Mike Kemether: 2:10

I'm a mechanical engineer by schooling, I was not a great mechanical engineer. So sales seemed to be a good path. And, and real estate, a really good path. And frankly, if I look back, I think about what I learned in engineering, which is to be kind of a linear thinker, and maybe kind of being a little bit process oriented, while also being maybe a little bit more personable than some of my peers in engineering. So taking the discipline in engineering, and applying it to a sales process works extremely well. And so if I look back to, you know, the 23 year old, coming out of college, I'm very grateful for having that kind of technical background, because I really think it applies in commercial real estate.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 3:15

When you were in a development role in Archstone. Smith also, prior.

Mike Kemether: 3:21

Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. So I did development acquisitions and dispositions for a public greed. But prior to that, some of the sales roles, including technical sales, within an engineering firm, and then also did management consulting, which was really a sales job because we consulted to engineers, architects, and environmental consultants. We were providing management consulting services. So in order to get the business, you had to sell the services. So all these little parts and pieces have really come in handy in commercial real estate. Although, had I started in commercial real estate from the get go, I'd probably be retired by now. So it was a little more of a circuitous path.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 4:12

Yeah. Maybe you never know. You never know. Like and what would you do if you were retired?

Mike Kemether: 4:18

I would be working on real estate deals.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 4:21

Exactly. Exactly. So you want to drill down on that. So you said sales within the engineering firm. So what did that look like? What were you selling?

Mike Kemether: 4:33

I worked back from 1985 to 93. I worked for a company called United Technologies, Pratt and Whitney and it is a cutting edge jet engine manufacturer. So we were working on some really high tech stuff. And it was taking technologies from that industry and introducing them like materials. Introducing those materials, which were cutting edge materials, to other areas, other industries, for example, introducing them to gas turbine engines for power rather than for jet engine propulsion. So it was really fascinating. And it was extremely technical. I love telling my counterparts in real estate, that while at that company, we would work on one part that would fit in the palm of your hand Mortdecai. And we may work on that one part for four or five years. And so, most real estate people have some level of ADD, and they're just always amazed at, like, you would work on one part that that's, that's that tiny, for four or five years. So very different in that regard. And that, you know, you would really focus on one thing and make sure that thing worked and worked really well. But the sales job was taking technologies from the aerospace industry, and introducing them to other industries.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 6:13

Very interesting. I find that in any particular industry, there's a particular way that people do the business. You know, there is a way that you know, in real estate, it's the construction materials, or the way that that a property is managed, or the way that in a brokerage, the way that invest in sales is done or debt brokerage, right. There's a way that that people do that business, right. And within that industry, probably like 90% is the same, it's pretty much the same thing. What people miss is the opportunities to look at other industries, some sometimes they could be adjacent, but sometimes they could be totally different. Right from, you know, your current industry, and looking for ways to apply, you know, a technology from another industry, to your own. And so, to have a sales job that was really focused on opening people's eyes to what's possible. Yeah, that to me is very interesting.

Mike Kemether: 7:20

Absolutely, absolutely. And there's one guy whose name immediately comes to mind, Stephen de Francis with Courtland partners. Yeah. And Cortland is one of the largest multifamily owners. But Stephen has done a great job of hiring outside of industry, in many cases, for many different roles within his organization, for that very reason. And pretty unique in that regard. I think others have kind of followed suit, but he was one of the first, during, you know, the last 20 years to really take a look at different roles within the organization, and maybe going to experts outside of real estate, and bringing them in and kind of benefiting from that new lens.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 8:10

So I wonder if, if that's translated to now, you know, we were talking before we started recording about a BTR if built around single family homes that developers are getting into, that's been a new area over the last couple of years, relatively new area for the last couple of years. But that's, you know, looking to me, that maybe is one example of looking at an adjacent industry. And then saying, wait a second, there's actually more commonality than we thought between these two, when you're when you're talking to clients, or if you're if you know, or anything that you're seeing in the industry. That's, that's an application of some innovation from from another area and maybe the Portland partners, they may have some interesting things that they've they've done or maybe you've seen other stuff.

Mike Kemether: 8:59

Yeah, so BTR SFR has really become a pretty meaningful part of our business now. And we look at it, as you know, just a of, you know, kind of a horizontal apartment community. You know, it's just flattened out and spread out. But obviously, there's way more nuanced than that. How they're managed, how they're built, is very different. You can use single family home developers rather than multifamily developers and GCS general contractors. The whole process is quite different. So we have a, a group within our team that focuses on BTR SFR Cushman and Wakefield has a division within their property management that focuses on BTR SFR so it is very nuanced and a little bit different than weather. You're selling or managing multifamily, it's a little bit different. And so those who probably have, you know, the creativity or the ability to reach outside the industry, and get insight probably benefit was stuff like

Mordecai Rosenberg: 10:15

that. I also wonder about, if there are technologies that we could be using in our industry, you know, if it's debt or brokerage, or servicing the company, they're showing me like they have their support desk function, right. And they track all of the calls, right, that come in. So they can they can tell you somehow it it's analog, the technology is analyzing those calls, and picking up on what was the issue here? Like, what was their tone? Right? And are there trends that they should be picking up? Right that they can then transmit to the, to the support team or to the sales team to get out ahead of it? And so like, even things like the amount of conversations that were that we have, with other people and your team? I mean, think about how many conversations, a VAT team across the country? How many conversations

Mike Kemether: 11:08

five, we have 105 teammates in the southeast 105

Mordecai Rosenberg: 11:13

teammates, it's remarkable. Think about all of the conversations that are happening every day. Right? And I mean, that person, whoever is having that that conversation is picking up that that knowledge, but there's nuance, and there's data that that's being created, that's just kind of goes into the ether, you know, that other industries have figured out what to do, how to do fine with that.

Mike Kemether: 11:34

Do you think commercial risk, because this is the knock is that maybe commercial real estate has been slow to adopt various different types of technology and maybe has been a little bit behind when it comes to technological advancement? Do you think that's true?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 11:53

What I would say is yes, and no, it's no doubt the case that commercial real estate companies have deployed probably less sophisticated technology than compared to a retail banking company or retail sales company or, you know, right now, that being said, you have to ask what the technology is trying what problem that they're trying to solve? And I think one of the interesting things about our industry is that you would think that it would be an inefficient market, right? You would think that because you don't have like a stock market, or NASDAQ, or right, where things are constantly traded, and you know exactly what they're worth, that it would be like an inefficient market. You would agree on imagine that it actually seems to be a very efficient market. Because you know, there's very smart people that are involved and are pick up on a nuanced. So it's, I think one of the issues is that we're not really clear on the problem that we're trying to solve.

Mike Kemether: 12:52

A that's a great point. And I would say it's incredibly efficient. And a lot of that efficiency comes from competition, frankly. So I would argue that if you like, you mentioned that, you know, the nice thing about publicly traded things is they have a price, they're very liquid, and they have a price at any time, right? You know exactly what it's trading for. But in commercial real estate, that's, especially in the private sector, that's not always the case. But if you go to a market like Atlanta, where there are a lot of good options when it comes to advisory services, valuation, investment sales, it's a pretty scientific process for valuation of an asset. And I think part of the reason it's so sharp is because of that competition, frankly. So if you go to an MSA or a market, that maybe the competition isn't as good. I question whether or not the valuations are as good. And I'll give you an example. In the 90s and early 2000s, there was a pretty dominant brokerage shop in North Carolina. And my boss at the time used to argue that cap rates were higher in the Carolinas because of lack of competition. Think about that for a second, so that you could buy an asset in Charlotte or in Raleigh, maybe above market, simply because there was not the broker competition. There should have been that is fascinating to me. So maybe to your point in markets like Miami, New York, Atlanta, there's so much competition, that it really refines valuation.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 14:44

Look, I think there's something to be said for that. I also think it is very different 15 years ago than it is today coming out of the financial crisis after Lehman Brothers that was when I feel like institutional investors There's discovered multifamily, right as mean, it used to be that either pension funds would have some small amount that would be allocated to real estate and multifamily was like very, it was all mount, you know, mostly Mom and Pop owners. And then some, like large institutions like Archstone Smith, or, you know, these REITs like to have it has a real allocation, I think it was when the rest of the market, you know, fell apart, and people looked at multifamily. It's like, wait a second, everyone needs a place to live. There's some good fundamentals here probably have become more efficient over the last 15 years.

Mike Kemether: 15:31

No doubt. No doubt.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 15:34

We talked a couple weeks ago about your team based approach. When people think about a salesperson, I think what might come to mind for people is this idea of the rugged individualist, a lone wolf out there just on their own. You've proven that there's an alternative model that can work very, very well. So Can Can you talk a little bit about your philosophy around your team? And like how you've done that your approach to team building?

Mike Kemether: 16:06

Yeah, absolutely. First of it, say, collective effort with I have. There's about 50 of us salespeople, and there's 105 of us on the team plus or minus, okay, it kind of came from the spirit of listings beget listings and a larger team, especially in times when there are there isn't complete clarity. larger teams can be really advantageous. Because we're all on text threads, we're all on emails, we see Oh, who has a 1031 exchange, who has the hot money, migrating money from one state to another, brokers can tend to be a little bit covetous. So by coming up with a shared model, where everybody's leaning in, everybody's working hard, and we're all connected, especially in times like today where there's not complete clarity, it really is beneficial. And the biggest beneficiary, Mordecai is the client, right? Because we're moving buyers. Oh, Savannah, we just sold a deal in Savannah. Well, guess what, Savannah has a lot like Mobile port city similar in size. So there are some similarities. So that buyer is Mobile buyer, they just don't know it yet. So that gives us the opportunity to tell them about the benefits of being in Moil, as well as Savannah or Charleston, for example, or Jacksonville, it's worked extremely well. It takes a unique personality to kind of fit in the model. It's not for everybody. But if you can imagine, think about a two person shop right now in the middle of nowhere, trying to understand multifamily capital markets, they have no idea what's going on, they're seeing a couple of data points. We're seeing dozens and dozens of data points each week. So it really makes the world a lot clearer, at least for me. And it also comes from just enjoying working with others rather than being kind of a me guy that's more focused on self and maybe a little bit more covetous.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 18:31

In some ways, when you're looking to hire a broker to lift your asset, you're the greatest strength can be the greatest weaknesses. Also, if I have a property in Charlotte, and I want to list it, I'm going to find the guy who's in Charlotte, right? The Charlotte guy, right? Who knows that market backwards and forwards knows exactly who's buying and selling. And what's happening is that the market, that's great, so that's my guy for selling in Charlotte. But now if I want to take my money, and go buy something in mobile, or that route, now, where am I going? The salesperson was so valuable to me because he knew Charlotte, but he also knows nothing about that route. You can't be a national generalist where you know, every single market in the country, right? So you've kind of you kind of solve for that.

Mike Kemether: 19:18

How about the Charlotte guy and the Baton Rouge guy or or woman are both incentivized to help you? So you get it. Do you have any multifamily apartments that you're interested in selling? We can help you in the southeast.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 19:34

Thank you. Yeah, there's nowhere else I would go.

Mike Kemether: 19:38

Good, good. Good. Yeah, we got that. Right. Great.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 19:41

Now listeners who are in sales, who are originators or brokers, they would say they might say, Well, yeah, that's well and good. But what about commissions? That's, I think a lot of times where these things fall apart, but you guys have figured out a model where you know, everyone have a share in the success of that team. Yeah, we've

Mike Kemether: 20:03

created a model where there's it is a shared model, folks are focused on their regions. But it is a shared model to allow the free sharing of information of clients. So it's, it works really, really well. Again, it's not for everybody, if you're kind of an eat what you kill kind of person, you would not love this model, the biggest beneficiaries, candidly, are young brokers really benefit and ramp up much more swiftly than if they were working in a small shop. And maybe it was a little bit more focused on you know, the deal you have around the corner that you absolutely, positively have to sell this year, otherwise, your, your spouse is not going to be talking to you. So it allows young brokers to have product interact with sellers, and really build up a book of business in a healthy way, I would argue they're the biggest beneficiaries. And and again, it's not for everybody, because there are some very, very good, very successful brokers who do a great job and a great fiduciary for their owners, their sellers, but they are more solo artists, they do a great job. But this model really appeals to me. It appeals to 49 other partners, candidly, from a brokerage and a n a staff standpoint, from a staff perspective, very little to no turnover brokerage standpoint, I think, my guess is, if you looked kind of across the country, at broker turnover, we would we would be on the low side, it's certainly not zero, but it would be low.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 22:09

How does it work, let's say you're a younger broker, I don't know, let's say you're just out of school, you're coming in as just an imagine you're not going to be made a partner like from day one, get to earn your keep first or you know, produce a certain amount before you're, you know, for your wedding.

Mike Kemether: 22:26

Many of the brokers who have ended up on our team have started as staff members, maybe they're doing production, putting pitches together. So probably the majority kind of work through the ranks here and became brokers that way, there are some exceptions to that. And brokers we've hired from other shops, but probably the majority started on a brokerage team as a as as a salaried employee and work their way through that. That's probably where most of them have come from. That's a guess, on my part. But the way we've structured it is that we all are kind of yoked together and we all benefit every time a deal closes, we don't benefit the same way. When you close we close 360 deals last year, in 2022. So it does eliminate some of the risk of being a two person shop in Bloomington. Right. So it is really a good setup for a young gun who wants to build up a book of business? And so the question I usually get is, well, what if somebody's not leaning in, we have methods of kind of reviewing who's on first and who's doing what from a procurement and execution standpoint. And we just have a culture that is really driven, and you know that there aren't many people taking plays off. So the concern is someone gets comfortable in a shared model. And we do not let people get too comfortable, frankly, and actually haven't really had a problem with that.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 24:25

I think in some ways, when you're sharing, it puts more of a magnifying glass on that.

Mike Kemether: 24:32

You know, it's funny you say that because we had one person leave. This was a couple of years ago, great guy, and he left and it was pressure he was putting on himself to perform in this type of a model because you have a team and teammates are reliant upon you. And he was doing a great job by the way, but he felt pressure that he didn't want and he would prefer or to be more of a, you know not to use that analogy. But as solo artists, he was just happier kind of doing a more of an eat what you kill model. And God bless him, he's he and I are still great friends. He did not work in the Atlanta region. But he's a great guy, and he's a successful broker. And so when I mentioned that the model doesn't work for everybody, that's true.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 25:26

It also works better at scale, because now you're really getting the power of various markets. How do you start? Let's say, if you have, you know, if you're a broker today that maybe you're, you know, a lone wolf salesperson, and you see the benefit in this, right, but everyone in your firm is like lone wolf, how do you start? Is there one conversation with another person say, hey, why don't we team up? Or is it like a whole group that gets together? Like, how do you start them?

Mike Kemether: 25:52

Mordecai, I'll just say two things. One is, again, the biggest beneficiary is the client, because they get the benefit of 49. Others, above and beyond my Kenneth are working on their assignment. That's pretty powerful. And clients feel that the truth of the matter is, our model is really, really hard to replicate, frankly. And it has to do with a lot of things. One of them being ego driven, it's just a very hard thing to replicate for some of the reasons you're mentioning. And it's really hard to get started. So we did a merger of two teams back in 2016. And it was almost the only way that we could all lock arms. So we got a taste of it when we did that merger. And we've just expanded on that model quite a bit. At that time, it was probably a team of 16. And now we're a team of 50. But that's that's how we got indoctrinated.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 27:04

I think it's a good protective mode. Because if you are at whatever national brokerage firm, yeah, and they operate with your kind of individual office lonewolf model, like good luck. Trying to create it like it almost has to be either. Yeah, it has to be from scratch with a lot of people that are starting with that mindset. So I think if you're you mentioned your the turnover rate of your staff, I think that's probably part of the reason is that if they want to if they want to replicate that team based approach, there probably aren't a lot of other places you can go.

Mike Kemether: 27:38

No, and it is unusual in this regard. How can I say this tactfully? If my chemother got hit tomorrow by a beer truck, we don't miss a beat, frankly, we have a team that kind of absorbs the work and absorbs the client, which makes it a great model for the brokerage shop, frankly, whereas if the lone wolf gets hit by a truck, that business dissipates.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 28:06

I mean, I love that focus on the customer. I mean, in theory, like we're in a sales business, and we're in we're both in like service businesses, it should be obvious that the focus should be around how do we provide the best experience for the client? However, that's not always first in mind for

Mike Kemether: 28:25

Well, well, everybody says that, everybody says it. They everybody, everybody says it. But to do it is tougher. And I believe in my heart of hearts that clients feel the difference. And they've communicated that, by the way, it's this model is not without its complexities and issues, there's been a growth in it, just the number of things you have to deal with. And there's just a host of things that come up, we have a very strong administrative team, that helps a lot. We're led by Morgan Berg, from an administrative perspective, because we all don't always see eye to eye. So that's been incredibly helpful. So having a really strong administrative team has been helpful. But I don't want to paint this kind of picture where, you know, there there are, you know, daily things we deal with, that are complex, and, you know, things are not always perfect, but by and large, this model has worked really well for us.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 29:36

Well, there's always complications,

Mike Kemether: 29:38

no doubt, no doubt.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 29:41

I'm curious how you're advising your clients today, and we're sitting here in February 2023. No one really knows where the market is. Today. Still, I mean, I think yeah, there's questions about where the where rates are going. And I'm curious, like, let's say, let's start with like a brand new client, let's say someone who you've never actually transacted with, right? So this is a prospect, someone who you're you've been introduced to, what are you saying in that meeting that first meeting to them?

Mike Kemether: 30:17

So Mordecai, one of the benefits of being a large team, is you're bumping into a lot of clients, and maybe you have a little bit more on your shelves, right. So, so we showed up at the big national Multifamily Housing Conference with 120 deals that were either launched about to launch or we were working off market, that's a lot of data points, it's a lot of product, bigger team. So it's a little bit misleading, right? You know, it's hard for a two person shop to have that kind of inventory, we do have a pretty good sense for what's going on in the market at any given time. Even right now, we do feel like 2023 Each month that we get into this year, there will be more clarity in terms of debt, markets, capital markets, and there'll be more deal volume. So I mentioned that because in some of the larger MSA is like Atlanta, Atlanta, we had a call for offers yesterday on a deal, and we just set the record for number of tours on that particular deal. And as offers continue to come in, the number of offers will maybe set a record, I think the number of tours already did. That doesn't mean that pricing on that deal is back to March 2022 levels, what it would have been worth in the first quarter of last year. But it does mean like we're gonna have a fist fight for that deal in the best and final, almost by definition, given how many offers and interested parties there are.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 32:02

Let's say that this group that you're sitting down with here for the for the first time, right, they have a portfolio, they're not sure what they want to do with it, they're thinking about selling, but they've been working with, who knows CBRE or Marcus and Millichap or new mark like for they have an existing, strong existing relationship? What's your pitch to say, here's why you should give, you know my team, and that means Krishnan, but it also means just you know, my chemists are like their, you know, and team. What's What's your pitch for? How do you get them to open up in this kind of a market where maybe people are more reluctant to try something new? Or maybe the idea of like, Look, we're not trying to actually land a deal today. But we're gonna just try to build trust today in the hopes of investing in future possibility?

Mike Kemether: 32:51

Well, it depends on the portfolio or the specific deal because there are some, some deals that are ready for primetime right now. And my benefit from the dearth of product on the market right now, my guess is in the third and fourth quarter of this year, maybe there's a little bit more clarity. But you're probably if you're launching a deal, it's probably competing against a lot more product. The reason we just sent that rep set that record in Atlanta, is because of scarcity of products. So there'll be a scarcity premium on that deal. Now, what will, what will things look like in the third and fourth quarter of this year? I'm not sure. But I do know if there's more product, we're probably not doing the same number of tours on that particular on that same deal. So I think the story, each deal, there's there's a story and it's deal dependent, as to the best time to go. But what I would make sure that that owner left the room understanding is instead of having a bunch of fiefdoms, where maybe other brokerage shops talk about working together, but maybe aren't great at it. Always. In this instance, we would be we'd have if they hired Mike Kenneth, or if they hired one of my partners doesn't matter who you're really hiring an army of 50 people who are focused on getting that deal done because we're all incentivized to get it done.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 34:31

To get 50 People for the price of Yeah, one thing you're paying

Mike Kemether: 34:35

the same fee, you're paying the same fee. Right. Some of my partners have done a great job on the top end, providing some pretty deep advisory services, not to get too into it, but into the weeds, but really providing advisory services again, there's one fee, but maybe they're good Adding maybe the clients getting some advisory services over a period of time, that could be very, very helpful.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 35:06

What kind of advisory? Oh, there's,

Mike Kemether: 35:08

there's, there's 100 things that it could be but but, you know, it's interesting because owners don't have the same lens that we do as brokers, maybe that owner is seeing a half a dozen deals across a couple of southeastern states, we closed 360, I don't even want to think how many deals we've been exposed to. So helping clients with a host of things, whether it's in lease up, or whether it's rent structure, or whether it's, what do you do in the two months for operations prior to launch? Are there some things we could do as the owner that would help maximize our value? The answer to that question is yes. And some owners don't even know to ask the question. But I would argue I'm surrounded by partners, who are very good at the advisory part of the business, who can really, really help clients and owners maximize value by possibly setting setting the stage prior to hitting the market. Yeah, that is that makes sense.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 36:24

Right, helping them, helping them prepare to do the right thing to position themselves for maximum proceeds when they do

Mike Kemether: 36:32

that try and it's not all intuitive ease, either. Even for someone who's done property management for a while, setting something up for disposition. It's not always completely intuitive, what the best move is, and that's where we can help.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 36:51

Yeah, I think that's, that's very valuable in terms of conversations with clients. You know, might you might my father has like, one kind of question that he likes to ask, which is, you know, how dumb Do you feel if you're wrong? It's like, well, you know, interest rates are so high, they're at five and a half percent cap rates like this, maybe, maybe the market will come back. It's like, okay, maybe, but how dumb Do you feel if you're wrong? Yep. People are treating this, like a, like a real downturn, you know, because interest rates have crept up. And yes, the Fed has raised rates faster than they ever have before. That being said, I don't consider that. I mean, this isn't, isn't slower. It's not a downturn like we've seen in the past downturns in the past. You've seen art quick, sudden, right? No one saw them coming. The issue is unrelated to the multifamily market. It could be the Russian ruble crisis. It could be the subprime loan crisis. You know, it could be 911. Right. But something happens in the or your long term capital management, right? Something happens that hooks the market, and then liquidity is nowhere to be found. Yes, there aren't as many loan lenders that are chasing deals today, you can still find capital, you know, there's still capital out there. Right. So what happens if you know something happens, and I don't know there's war breaks out with China, and now spreads blow out by 500 basis points, and there's no buyer for the paper. Right now you've got right now you feel really dumb it You didn't take your loan at five and a half percent and sell it at your 5% cap rate. When there's no liquidity in the market,

Mike Kemether: 38:32

no doubt, no doubt. And just to put things in perspective, last year, 2022 was our second best year ever from an investment sales standpoint in the southeast in our on our 11 State team, we see this year as kind of being a mirror image of last year. So last year, the majority of the business got done in the first half of the year. And then it dropped off, especially in November, December. But the first half was the best six months we had ever had. We see this year as being a mirror image of last year, suggesting that the first six months we'll replicate the last six months of last year. And then this year being pretty weighted towards the second half of the year. We haven't seen anything to discourage that prediction yet. And just to put things in perspective, in 2008 and 2009, when we were selling deals, there was no debt available. We the deals that we were getting done and getting across the finish line, were being sold to all cash buyers for the most part in eight and nine. So if you look at all of the debt options available today, and you look at the equity that's available, and waiting There is plenty of business to be done for folks who are willing to lean in and and focus on the business. Yeah. And by the way, if you've got a huge pie, right, and the pie gets a little smaller, but you're grinding, there's plenty of pie. And and frankly, there's plenty of business to be done right now. And we're starting to see it in launches, and in closings, so it's it's already happening.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 40:29

I'm curious, you know, now Greystone Cushman, right, there's a partnership, and you and you've also, you've experienced working with debt partners and capital markets, desks, you know, within Cushman, and probably outside, when it's working really well, like, what what does that partnership look, what is the debt partner doing to support your efforts? And when it doesn't work? Well, what what did that debt partner do or not do? Yeah, that that, that hurt? Oh, that's

Mike Kemether: 41:00

a great question. At the end of the day, it really comes down to the personalities that you're working with. And what I mean by that is, our businesses are very, very similar. And what I mean by that is, you can kind of do push button brokerage, and you go to the usual suspects, and you, you end up with a product, that's okay. Or you can put your heart and soul into, you know, we we get compensated by our clients to do creative solutions to help drive and maximize asset value for them. Right. So if you're going to take the easiest path, you're probably not going to be creating creative solutions for that particular client. And it's no different with your partner who's doing the debt, or your partner who's raising the equity. If it's somebody who's going to go the extra mile, and really think creatively on how best to solve this thing. That's going to be a great debt solution. If it's someone who's going to kind of stay in the fairway and not migrate outside, it's probably not going to be a great solution. So it's more personally, I've learned it's more personality driven. And when you find the right personality, you kind of lock on to them and you ride into battle with them. And you could go to some of your competing shops and find amazing depth brokers within Greystone find amazing depth brokers. So when you find the right one, you just kind of lock arms.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 42:47

Right, I think that also speaks to the challenge that some firms have when they're trying to combine to have, you know, a signed coverage, you know, where it's like, Well, okay, we're just you have to allow for a certain amount of organic development of relationships, people who will resonate with each other, and the energy will feed off of each other, rather than you saying, like, alright, Mike, you're gonna work with Mordecai, you know, I mean, I think you and I could work very well together. But you But I agree. Yeah, but but arranged marriages are like arranged marriages, you know, some of them are okay. But you have so many different people at an organization like one, ultimately, when you when you feel that block, you're going to really create magic together.

Mike Kemether: 43:29

Yeah, and there's another part to it as well, more to chi and that is, everything is infinitely ease here. Once you've met in person or broken bread together, you mentioned the relationship earlier, but it really gets kind of crystallized when you get to spend time in person together. And it's a little more difficult if you've never sat and had a drink together or looked each other in the eye. So it takes time I used to have a partner, Chris Fain, who would say that relationships are made one at a time and I he is so spot on. And so relationships take a little bit of time, whether it's with a partner, or whether it's with a client, or whether it's with a partner on our team who sits in Charlotte but helps with research, whatever it might be, you know, relationships are made one at a time. It takes a little bit of time. But boy if you if you pour into that the return is great.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 44:40

I love that Yeah, listen for me one at a time. You know I need to digest but it feels so true, you know, in like every area of life. Well, Mike, I really appreciate your time and coming on the show. This has been a very enjoyable conversation for me if it was for you as well. Elon, and I'm really just, I've been so blown away by your, your the team based approach, and anyone who has interacts with you just as like, really just, you know, blown away by the quality of the service and and your execution. So it's been really a privilege to be honest with you.

Mike Kemether: 45:19

Well, I have 49 partners, sales partners, who are wired exactly the same way. And, and I have 104 Total teammates, who are wired the same way. So I'm very fortunate in that I've bumped into people in life who kind of see the world very similarly. And frankly, Mordecai, not necessarily that we have the same style, we could be stylistically different. But at the end of the day, we really do care about the outcome. So I appreciate I appreciate you saying that.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 45:56

All right. Well, Mike, thank you again. And, you know, we'll talk we'll talk soon.

Mike Kemether: 46:02

All right. Yeah. Call me anytime. We don't have to be recorded to talk. So call me anytime.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 46:07

Absolutely, absolutely, Take care and thanks Mike.