Episode 39: Gideon Gil

SUMMARY:
Gideon Gil, Executive Managing Director at Cushman and Wakefield, is interviewed on the origination podcast. Gil talks about his early sales experiences, the importance of storytelling in sales, and how to create a sense of calm for clients during chaotic market conditions. He also discusses the trend towards bigger deals in the multifamily industry, and the role of relationships in closing transactions.

TIMESTAMPS:
0:15 - Introduction to this episode.

1:40 - What Gideon’s earliest sales experience looks like in his life

7:08 - Never Split The Difference

9:42 - What are some of the war stories that come to mind for you?

15:22 - Advice for people who want to get into the industry

20:23 - Presenting deals to an investment committee with 30 years of experience

24:47 - What is the key to telling a good story?

29:39 - How to use social media to get your message out

34:39 - Is there a “one size fits all” answer?

40:43 - The importance of getting ahead of the market in order to be ready when the market breaks

46:55 - Are there any banks or lenders starting to sell loans in distressed markets?

lenders, market, people, loan, client, equity, selling, deals, screen protectors, year, calls, rates, business, borrower, easy, long, sales, chase, interest rates, debt

Transcript

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:15

Hey, it's Mordecai. And welcome back to the origination podcast, where we speak to the top salespeople and sales leaders in the multifamily industry to try to understand what separates the top performers from the rest of the pack. On this episode, I'll be speaking with Gideon Gill Executive Managing Director at Cushman and Wakefield. Gideon has been a prolific producer, and has closed over a billion dollars of financings in his career. This is a really great conversation, and we talked about so many interesting topics. One of the things we talked about is a skill that is not appreciated enough in sales, and that is storytelling. How do you tell the right story to a client? It's not just about selling the transaction, but about telling the story. And we'll get into that. We recorded this in December of 2022. The markets are pretty chaotic. So we also talked about what's what do you how do you advise your clients during this time? How do you create a sense of calm for them? What kind of advice can you give them when there's so many I'm not? I think you'll really enjoy this conversation. I certainly did that without further ado, let's speak with Gideon. The one and only the great Gideon Gill. Welcome to the origination podcast.

Gideon Gil: 1:40

Good morning, and thank you so much for having me.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 1:44

Awesome. Well, Gideon, your your, you know, you're a name brand and kind of a giant in the, you know, in the industry in New York, but you know, like to go back to your to your your beginning. So, if you have to think about your earliest sales experience that comes to mind. Yeah, and that could be, it could be when you were in third grade, it could be high school or college or after college or even current industry. anything come to mind for you?

Gideon Gil: 2:15

Well, I probably would say that, it I would probably say that my it's not necessary experience, but it might be more osmosis for my father. My father and grandfather ran a jewelry business. And I would always see, especially with my dad, how prepared and, you know, kind of never take no for an answer type of attitude when they were in business. And that was something Oh, you know, I kind of liked the way they did it and sort of like a firm, but, you know, a way that got the deal done, but not necessarily like kind of being too aggressive about things or overtly aggressive. And then, you know, over the years, it's sort of just been more like kind of developing those, that comfort and confidence with communication skills in order to feel able to ask people for what you really want. And then that's sometimes the hardest part and being in a sales job. It's, it's like getting to the what do I want? And what does the other party want out of that bargain? So that's something that I continue to work on it refining and whatever we do,

Mordecai Rosenberg: 3:18

Asking for what you want, right? It sounds like, such a simple thing. But I know you have he's very good at that. You, my kids. Kids are very good at asking for what they want. And I feel like they've gotten better with generations. Like, I don't think I felt as comfortable asking for what I wanted from my parents. Yes, my kids do. I mean,

Gideon Gil: 3:38

I think I mean, if we want to talk about kids and parents, it's like, you know, I have four kids who are basically all teenagers at this point. And, you know, not to like knock an entire generation, but I think we as parents have made it much more like comfortable for the relationship that we have with our children, you know, everything. It's like, very viewed is much more emotive and sympathetic than I think our parents and certainly our grandparents were with their, their children. So yeah, I definitely agree with that.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 4:10

Yeah, my kids, I have four teenagers and then 10 year old so definitely supply a lot. Yeah. So your, your you mentioned your father and your grandfather in the jewelry store. So what what did that look like about like, no, not taking no for an answer, you know, and I think it's, there's a balance, right? Because you want to be on the one hand, especially in the sales industry, like there's this idea of like relentless pursuit, right and and, you know, kind of just dog ID Yeah, persistence, but yet, you know, if you're on the other side of it, and some guys like not getting the hint, right. It's, that's not going to be great for the relationships. So what did that what did that look like? In terms of not yet does that mean to not take no and do it delicate diplomacy.

Gideon Gil: 5:02

Yeah. So, so I think some of the things that I've taken away is, to some degree. So the family business was was more of like a wholesale business with like, gemstones and some jewelry and diamonds. And you know, to some degree, that's a commodity, right. And not to say that what we do is a commodity, but the parallels are that we're kind of, we're really what we do on the debt side of the businesses is really about, you know, it's about capital and funds, right. And to some degree, that it is a commodity, right, it just depends where it's coming from. And what I think the biggest takeaways that I've always seen, you know, at the earlier age is that the number one, I think you want to figure out how you can connect with, you know, the customer or the counterparty that you're working with, you know, you know, on a real, if possible, on a personal level, right. And I think in our industry, it's, it's really like on the who, you know, like, who do you know, in common that we both like and trust and sort of say like, that's like validation as far as how, how we can kind of like, go to the next level of this relationship or conversation. So I think, you know, I tell to my team all the time, like, you, you're gonna get good at this business, like, you're gonna understand how the mechanics work and how deals get done. But then it's going to really be about how you handle yourself with clients in deal situations. And so taking it back to like the sales experience, you know, it does feel like that not taking no for an answer, I think really started with just trying to always keep the door open a little bit in the conversation, like into, you know, not Obviously not every engagement results in a sale or results in a client signing up with you. But not taking no could mean, I'll call you in a week, I'll call you in a month, we'll follow up well, we'll do something to kind of keep the relationship building and moving. And you know, and I've seen that in my own career, like where it could be years before a relationship buds and become something where we're actually working on something live.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 7:08

Yeah. Yeah. In terms of keeping the door open. It's, there's a book called, never split the difference. It's a negotiations book by Chris Voss, who isn't he was a, you know, when there was like a bank holed up, and they were taking hostages, like he was called in for, like the FBI to negotiate that. So he had an interesting point, which is that you were usually talking to negotiations like getting to yes, like, how do you get them to a yes. And his, his strategy was the opposite. It's like, I want to get them to a no. Right? And so we'd say, let's, let's say in our, in our, in our industry, right, and you meet with a client, and they say, oh, yeah, I'm really loyal to my broker, like, I've been doing business with them for 30 years. Like, I'm just good. So he's saying, all right, that's great. So you probably like there's probably nothing that would ever that I could ever bring to you that would make you switch. Right? Say, Well, I don't know about that. I mean, I guess, you know, if you brought me a deal, or if you it's easier for someone to say no than to say yes. Right. And they feel more protect, you know, they feel more protected, right? So you to get them to actually kind of sell it. It's, I guess, like reverse psychology a little bit. But to say, there's probably like, no way you'd ever buy this gem from us, or this property, you probably never use like, well, I don't know about that. Like, don't you never say never you guys. Yeah. And actually, I do have this deal that maybe you guys could look at? Yeah. So the other side, same with same idea, you know,

Gideon Gil: 8:42

like how you connect? Right? It's, you know, I think what you're saying is a lot of psychology in that right? As far as, you know, if if you're ready kind of come to that conclusion. That's easy, right? For the customer or client to say no to you. But you kind of leave them with the what if right, what am I missing here? Because, you know, obviously this person has a career and must be doing something right. You know, maybe I should take some time to figure out what we could both benefit from like, yeah, I definitely agree with that. I'm not sure I use that exact phrasing, you know, what, you know, some of the stuff that we work on. But um, you know, I think you bring up a good point, though, because it sounds like veiled within that is the idea of like, what can I really do for you? Right, like what you can do for me, obviously, what you could do for me is hire me, you know, we do a deal. You know, I get paid, you know, fee or whatnot like obviously, that I think is in the bargain. But I think what sometimes get missed is what can I do for you? That's maybe different outside the box, service wise. I mean, there's so many levels of that that could be

Mordecai Rosenberg: 9:51

Is there anything that comes to mind in that regard, like things that you know, because like you said, we are in a mean, the perception is that good commodity businesses capital advisory, you know, so yeah, any any war stories that come to mind about like interesting things that you did to start a relationship,

Gideon Gil: 10:12

You know, like the one refrain that I always feel I get or we hear is, you know, clients want you to be aggressive, right. And it's sort of like, they want you to do something that they feel like they either don't have the time to do or don't want to do. And, you know, obviously, there's different levels of that. And in my opinion, it can mean a lot of different things like there are people who will just like pick up the phone and call relentlessly. And, you know, almost in a very detached way, try to beat them over the head, someone over the head in order to get what they want. But I think there's also like, in that word, it's sort of just more of like a tenacity of just kind of keeping a process going, ever giving up. And I think like, that's something that I've seen both in, look, we can talk about where we are in the world and the cycle later on, but like, I think that that's like a really important quality, because it's in the last few years, you know, prior maybe to 2022, I think there were a lot of people who whatever your industry can be pretty successful, because you're sort of in this rising tide. And now you're sort of in with a shrinking pie to some degree, it's like, how do you prove your mettle? You know, do you have the chops to kind of stick it out right now. And I think it's sort of led by grid and kind of sticking with it that that I know, is valued. And I've seen get valued by our clients, right? It's, it's like, we're working on lots of things where it's just like, you just can't give up, right? It's just, it's not easy, necessarily, it'd be amazing if we can just like get, you know, a couple of great offers, and, you know, they just pick the one that's the best, and we negotiate an incredible deal, which, you know, obviously, is our goal on everything. But I think that that, you know, in a tougher environment just is that quality that you really want to have in order to kind of keep going forward? You know, and that's, it's very easy to get discouraged, I'd say, in our industry. You know, somebody once said, to me, this expression, like, brokerage industry is about appointments and disappointments, you know, and it's easy to get discouraged. No, because you're kind of always working and things go sideways. And deals may not happen. And, you know, there's a lot of things that that could go, you know, off the rails, but I'd say like, kind of just staying focused, and, you know, aggressive and tenacious as to like, what your goals are is really important.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 12:34

Right? I mean, especially at the beginning, we there's so much we're getting a lot of rejection, before you start seeing the light of day.

Gideon Gil: 12:42

Yeah, and, you know, the expression if this were easy, everyone would do it. Right. It's like, that's any industry any job, right? It's like, I think it does become like, to some degree a pyramid where, you know, there's some selectivity as far as who can stick with it and is good at it and, and kind of make it to that next level, and then level after that. I mean, it definitely is a big part of what we do.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 13:02

Yeah. Let's talk about whale hunting. Yeah. And you guys, you and Cushman team. I mean, your your client roster in New York is just, I mean, it's star studded, it's that, you know, it's the client list that that yeah, salespeople dream of having happen, right? How do you get to a? Yeah, just these institutional sponsors doing, you know, 200 or 100 billion dollar deals? Right. And they're calling and you're, you're getting the financing assignment? Like, how does that how does that relationship start?

Gideon Gil: 13:43

Yeah, so So I would say this, that being part of a bigger organization opens many, many doors in those opportunities. And, you know, I, I appreciate the concept that, you know, it's one person one brand, but it's, that's really not the truth. Right? It's, it's basically a complete team effort here. And, you know, there there are folks who can be the one person show and land those type of whale deals, but I'd say, within a bigger organization, you know, and I think we talked about it earlier, there's sort of this bigger bargain as far as like, what can what can you what can your team do for me, and, you know, sitting in a company like Cushman and Wakefield, you have incredibly lucky because I, I sit and then kind of merged together with one of the most prolific if not the most prolific investment sales team, certainly in New York and maybe around the country. And as far as like, what those doors open for what we do in financing are enormous. You know, we also have incredible services between our leasing between our evaluations team, you know, there's a lot of things that all kind of come together in the bigger relationships in order to kind of make that happen. But I think both That's great, and it opens the door. But, you know, every one of those opportunities, especially if it's a new relationship is really, it's not going to happen if if you're not good, right? It's not like, Hey, we're gonna hire your team, but it's like, you know, you need to know what you're doing, you need to have that track record, and kind of convey that, to, you know, those types of clients on those deals. So I think that it is, is very much a team effort. But it's also very much, you know, cumulative experience, right, having been doing this for many years.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 15:32

Yeah, so do you think like the, you know, if you're giving advice to someone who is coming out of college, let's say, and they want to get into the industry, and their choice is to work for a big firm, you know, or to work for a small boutique firm, where they're, you know, they're not as much of a name, but they get to wear a lot of hats. And, you know, it's, it's just a smaller group, maybe to get out in front, you know, more more quickly, you know, what do you think is? Any general advice that you would give? Or you think it? It depends?

Gideon Gil: 16:05

Yeah, I'd say, there's a lot to be learned in some of these bigger companies, right, I think that, if you No part of this, I'd walk it back and says, It's partly depends on your personality, you know, if you're somebody who is, I'd say, a little more linear in your career path, I'd say working in a bigger company is probably a great start, because you're going to be meeting tons of people, you'll be getting a lot of great training, you'll be getting a lot of transactional experience meeting capital sources on all sides of the table, you know, the buyers, the lenders, some of the service providers, you know, in the middle there, so, there's a lot that happens that it's like, you're kind of just really, really growing and learning on everything you touch for those, you know, first early part of your career, and it opens a lot of doors, you know, what I found working in a bigger company is that your network, not only within your company grows, but eventually a lot of people leave and go to other companies, and you know, the network grows just very organically that way over the course of a career, you know, so I frequently run into somebody who's somewhere else for like, 10 or 15 years already. And like, yeah, we used to work together at, you know, Clarion, or whatever, you know, it's like, there's a lot of that overlap that that happens. The other side is like, there are some people who are kind of like, you know, born entrepreneurs, right, where it's like, they're just their DNA set up to take risk. And, you know, they have that kind of go getter personality, where they can comfortably work in a bigger organization and, you know, sit at a desk and kind of report to a number of people, and maybe they're amazing at being someone else's right hand person, and they can just get everything done. And everyday is completely different. And, you know, they just are really great at absorbing that kind of dynamic change, right? That that you just never know. And it's exciting to them, and it kind of leads them on a path that eventually they'll be that the lead entrepreneur. So, you know, I think in our industry, we can say there was like, both sides of that and everything in between. I mean, it's really incredible. How can accommodate that?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 18:15

Yeah, that's very interesting. You mentioned Clary on. So you've been on lots of different sides of the business also read so yeah, I believe you started your acquisitions and development. So that is a clarion testing, one kind of selling because while you're actually trying to buy, but buying and selling to, right, you're trying to get people to sell sell to, you know, RCG long view, you know, just selling high yield debt products. Madison, looking forward to purchase just distressed debt. And then I think Columbia River capital also was a business you had for advising your family offices? How would you describe the differences in in the kinds of selling that you have to do from, from all those different parts, because it sounds like you've really covered like, the full gamut from the buy side acquisition to offering debt as a direct lender to trying to buy debt, you know, then advising like investors like you really, and now advising on on debt and equity, you've kind of done the full full gamut. So I'm curious kind of get your perspective on this different parts of the, you know, the time.

Gideon Gil: 19:37

So there's a couple of layers to that, and I'll try and get to them. So, you know, on the sales front, right, I would tell you that in every one of those jobs, or stops for me, there has been like an enormous sales component. And I think it means different things, right. So even when, you know, it was like, associated, you know, Oh, at Clarion. I won't exactly use the word sales, but but the big job was in order to gather information for acquisitions, for our team leaders put together these very, very detailed investment memos, that ultimately would get presented to a very senior level Investment Committee. Right. And one of the great things that Clarion afforded me was, I was, you know, like, maybe 2829 30 years old, and just out of business school, and able to present these deals to an investment committee, right, of folks that had, you know, as individuals, you know, 3040 years of experience in the industry. And it really did test your mettle, because there was number one, did you know your deal? Right, did you know the market details, we really up to the task there. So that was like one level of like, are you really know what you're talking about. And I think another part of it was really like how you present it, right? As far as like, your tone, your elocution, your, you know, this is like a lot within that, that you just sort of, are you fluid with how you're speaking and kind of keeping people engaged, you know, definitely been in meetings where there was a good deal. And the presenter was just stumbling, and not kind of getting there. And you could tell the audience was sort of fading and that that deal might not get approved, but for the wrong reason. And so I think that that's something that I think is really important, it's sort of like how you not only have a command of the facts, but how you really tell the story. Like, I think that's really important. And, you know, so So that's, that's like one area, and I think it kind of carries through, like these people tell me all the time, like, you know, yeah, you're an advisor, you're a broker, you know, you're on the sales side. But I'm basically an internal broker at this lending shop, or I'm an internal broker at this acquisition shop, because all I'm doing is trying to get people to buy in, so they'll give me the money to lend or give me the money to, to bid. So we're all doing that, on some level, whether you, you know, realize it or not, whether it's your title or not, but we're all kind of doing that on some level. You know, to your to your other observation, as far as like, you know, a few of the stops in my career before I got to Cushman. I think for me, they've been incredibly valuable. I have like, tremendous admiration for folks who can kind of jump into this business, very early in their career, and really start building up a book of business, because, you know, there's a lot to learn, you know, about real estate in general. And, you know, for me, it took me, you know, a number of years, both on the acquisition side, or the equity side, and the debt side, to really understand like how it all comes together. And for me, it helped, it helped, like really crystallize. Like when I look at a deal, like I can sort of, in my estimations like sort of say, this is an interesting deal. And this is how a lender is going to look at it. And this is an interesting deal, because what a buyer is going to look at, and it's obviously the market evolves and changes. So you're still always learning. But I think it's kind of having a cumulative experience that really has helped me be better at what I do. On the advisory side, because I've sad, to some degree, I've sat in those seats with with both clients and lenders and understand like, to some degree what decisions they have to go through.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 23:31

Right? Yeah. And sometimes as much as we think we know what it feels like to be on the other side. You don't right mean, you think you could say, oh, yeah, like, here's what, you know, here's what it takes to get a, you know, to get a financing, you have to you have to submit these documents and and then, you know, wait 30 days, or whatever it is, but it's, do you know what it feels like to actually submit those documents, right? How hard is it to pull those you know, or to get title or to what kind of the stress that you feel when you have a closing deadline coming up, and you haven't heard back and you're waiting back from the lender, so I think probably gives you a certain amount of empathy that's difficult to have, if you've never been in that other seat.

Gideon Gil: 24:18

And to some degree, it also helps you understand how hard to push. You know, when you're dealing with somebody who it's just a one person organization, I think you probably feel like you can push pretty hard all the time. But when you're dealing with someone who is part of a much larger organization, you know, it's it's only reasonable to give that person some latitude because, you know, they're gonna have to go and go through committees and committees don't meet every day, and you have to have consensus. And it's like, you know, it's no wonder that a lot of these institutions just move slower because they're not, you know, there's just more stakeholders involved in a lot of these processes. So I think people pick that up fairly quickly. But you sometimes forget it in the heat of the moment when you're just like, I want an answer. And you just sort of realized that that's not necessarily possible. So quickly, it does sometimes take a little time.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 25:11

Yeah, you mentioned the importance of being able to tell a story, you know, in your elocution. What is the key to telling a good a good story?

Gideon Gil: 25:22

I'm not sure there's a formula to that, right. But I think that trying to keep your audience engaged to some degree, like, almost every single person who's a salesperson, me included, should have taken like, almost like a drama class. Right, or some sort of like, you know, certainly a public speaking class. Because I think that, what, especially in this age, where in a nanosecond, someone's gonna go and just like, pick up their phone and check their texts or their emails and kind of get distracted, right? You sort of feel like you're really on the clock, right? As far as to have your attention? How long can I keep your attention for, you know, and my connecting with you, and I feel like more than ever, that's so hard, because there's so many things competing for everyone's attention. And I'm on the other end of that, also, and bad as everybody else when it comes to staying focus. So I think like, a lot of it is sort of saying, like, how do I tell the story so that, you know, I'm basically giving my conclusion upfront. And basically, this is what I'm gonna tell you a story about, this is the deal, these are the deal points, these are the terrible things that we're going to overcome together, these are the great things that are gonna make you want to do this deal. And then sort of drilling down, right, and knowing when to get technical. And when not to right. And at least in our industry, it's like, you sort of sorta have to read the room a little bit and understand like, hey, is this a group that's going to want to go real deep into the numbers? Or is this the an audience that really wants just to hear more qualitative and will save the numbers for their analyst, and we'll get there when we get there. So I think it's sort of like drilling down and knowing how far to drill down. And before you come back up to the surface, and, and then I always like to really wrap with a conclusion, right? Like, what was the message that we took away here? It's like, if you're gonna remember one thing from this conversation, let me leave you with that. You know, and to some degree, where you start and where you end should be fairly similar. At least that's what it feels like. And not obviously, not everything's different. But it does feel like that's important.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 27:30

Yeah, I feel like it would be interesting to do some kind of a sales training, competition with like, younger, your brokers, originators, and we call it like, the, like the TIC Toc test, right, which is like you just given like, what, you know, you have 30 seconds, and you need me to want to stay on for the next 30 seconds. Right. So like, Give me something in 30 seconds. Because really, you know, when I was when I yeah, I've been in the industry for about 20 years, like when I was starting in cold calling, you know that it was like you had two minutes, roll when you got on the phone. Right? For now. I feel like it's yet 22nd to get someone interested, or else they're out.

Gideon Gil: 28:14

I agree. It's like, you just have to like, it's such a frenetic pace now for everything, right. So like, when you, we're all so busy, right? It's like, it's amazing the amount of information and choices that we all juggle every single day, even on the way it's just, it's just, it's incredible, like how much that we get done. I mean, just, you know, you think about, like, we sent out an email. Now, back in the day, that was like, someone had to type up on a piece of paper, a memo, and that memo would then get sent out to like, 10 people, and it might take an entire day to arrive at somebody's desk, and that we're just doing that like 1000 times a day, you know, it's really insane. Like how how, you know, and I'm sure it's gonna get even more the technology continues to progress. So and that that will be interesting how we all kind of evolve and adapt to that. But But yeah, you're right. It's, it's sort of like, how do you kind of grab somebody? And it I don't think it necessarily has to be like, so theatrical, like, you know what I mean, it doesn't have to be like, you walk in, and it's like, boom, like, an episode of Shark Tank or something like that, but that it's sort of like kind of comes back to what I think we were saying earlier as to what have I got, and what I've got that could be interesting for you, and how do I Yeah, you know what I mean? And sort of figure out a way to connect with you as quickly as possible.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 29:39

Right? Yeah, another, you know, just kind of using the social media metaphors. And like, another model that's very interesting is like these like Twitter threads, right? So your Twitter gives you I don't know two or three characters or however many characters they give you. So when people start doing as they started doing these threads where they do that 250 characters however many is, but there has to be enough and then you then you comment on your own. Right, you know, your own initial thing, and then it kind of has to keep keep you going down, right? So it's, if you looked at it also, it's like, alright, you have your first 30 seconds, but now that the theatrical but like you need to be saying something that's compelling enough to make someone want to go to the next step, right and you can take like, why you need to? We think that it looks good if you come with like a big book. Yeah, these big laminated professional books, right, but like, they look nice on a table, but how many people are reading about the employment trends, like in the market and employment trends, you know, and here's why multifamily is a strong investment. You know, it's like there's a lot that no one ever just looks at, that's just,

Gideon Gil: 30:52

we get, we get that knock. I think a lot of, you know, call it the bigger brokerage firms, and we put together our materials we do exactly that, you know, there's probably four pages that really matter in these books, right, you know, as far as what what the deal is really all about. And then there's definitely, obviously information that matters, but maybe doesn't matter in that first like, cut. But yeah, we joke around, we're like, oh, this deals in in New York City. And then you have like, a whole section on Central Park. And, you know, the museums and whatnot. You're like, does anybody not know that? You know, but it's sort of like one of those things. Yeah. You know, sudden you got like an 85 page book. And people are like, Oh, my God, it's like homework. I have all this.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 31:37

Yeah, yeah, we do my my team at Greystone. So we do a quarterly portfolio retention report. So we look at like all the loans that were paid off, and how much did we keep? How much was refinanced with other lenders, if it was rigged against other lenders? Which other lenders if it was sold, like which brokers sold it, and who did the next financing, but and we would share it with production managers, people, and everyone wanted more and more information, right? So like, went from being like 12 slides? to Now I think it's like, I don't know, also, like 55 slides I said, and I said, Okay, this is great. We have all this information. But the next thing is to get it back to two. Right? Because what's the yes, we have all this information for anyone who wants it, but you need to be able to get it down to your two or three things, which is like, here's the bottom line, here's where here's, here's what happened.

Gideon Gil: 32:30

Right? And I think, you know, look, look, our two firms produce a lot of data and information and what's what's great, you know, both Greystone and Cushman, it's like, there's a lot of unsolicited research reports that come my way. And the what I've noticed, like more consistently is these reports are really like two to three pages. And I think, you know, we're saying the same thing that you just can get there quicker. And there's also just so much time and data that people can absorb, like, I would love it, if it was like, you know, 20 pages, and it was like, you know, really engaging and you really need and that does exist, and we do sometimes see that, but like, and certainly like pitches and whatnot are much more in depth. But, you know, as far as some of the conclusions that I think you're referencing here, yes, you can probably nail it on, on a couple of pages.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 33:21

Right. Right. It's like don't assume that you're the person you're meeting with has less add than you do. Yeah. As a Yeah. So, your Cushman is is a, you know, is a broker advisor. You guys do lots of other things, you know, Greystone is a lender. You know, one thing that I'm curious about is, you know, for institutions, you know, a lot of like, let's say that, you know, agency, business and FHA businesses done with your, I don't know, 15 to 30 $40 million loan business, right, which is not like your Blackstone Starwood, you know, KKR, you know, deals. What you have to do differently to serve a big institution, what are their expectations? You know, what if you if you were giving advice to a lender, we're, you know, salesperson or underwriter? Anyone on the team, but it's like, well, what's the difference between, you know, doing a deal with someone who has 10,000 units, you know, and someone who has yet 100,000 units, you know, in terms of their expectations?

Gideon Gil: 34:39

Yeah, I don't think there's like a one size fits all answer to that. Right. I think, you know, we laugh about this, but sometimes you might find some of these, you know, mid size, smaller deals are much more intense than some of these bigger institutional deals, right. So to some degree, I think it's the Certainly the clients, some of these bigger institutional deals are, are, you know, sometimes much more down the fairway as far as cash flows and, and leverage points and things that people are looking for that are much more, you know, manageable. And then sometimes some of these smaller transactions, folks try to get super aggressive, and there's a lot of moving parts. And you know, it could be much more challenging. So I think like, the key throughout all of that is really the preparation, right? It's far as like, kind of understanding what you're about to embark on, what's the journey on this deal, and really try to understand it up front, like a lot of what we do, really, really early on in our process is trying to identify what are going to be the challenges of, you know, quote, unquote, selling this transaction, you know, when we go out to the market? And, you know, what are the hardest parts? Is it? You know, the real estate taxes? Is it some rollover, I mean, there's, you know, as we know, there's tons of things that that are on every transaction. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's like the institutions demand this level, and then, you know, the midmarket clients would demand a different level. Like, I don't think that's the statement, I think it's just really understanding the transaction ahead of you, and kind of being as prepared as possible to communicate what you need to get done. And I think there's sort of like a lot of uniform traits and characteristics that I think you just bring to every single deal, at least, if you want to be successful on them. I mean, I don't think you can go into a deal and say, like, oh, this deal smaller, and it's a smaller fee, and I'm going to work less hard. I mean, I think that is a recipe for failure. Yeah. You know, sometimes it's the opposite. Right? I think you sometimes have to work even harder on those on those transactions. So I would say, you know, perhaps, like the institutions want more data, right, as far as how they report and, and kind of look at their decision making in that context. But, but that, overall, I think there's a lot of similarities to kind of how we approach every one of those deals.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 37:11

Right? Right. And to your point, in some ways, it's easier to sell a deal that's been bought by KKR. So

Gideon Gil: 37:19

it's a great point, you know, some of these bigger institutions have a very, very tight following of Capital Partners, you know, lenders who want to continue to work with them, right? So it's like, hey, you know, we want to do another deal with, you know, one of those groups, and they're almost sometimes making a case to us as to like, you know, why, right. So it does sort of depend on who the sponsor is, that definitely makes, it provides a lot more visibility into how the transaction is going to go forward. Right, like a first time borrower who doesn't have any, you know, relationships with some of these lenders. I mean, that's, that certainly makes it more challenging.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 38:00

Yeah, for sure. We're sitting here, it's towards the beginning of December 2022. And the market is, is challenging, and people are still trying to, you know, try and get their arms around. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to believe that it's the same year, as like January of 2022.

Gideon Gil: 38:24

Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that statement. Yeah.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 38:27

Yeah. I mean, we were like we were doing, we were adjusting, and we were doing value estimates across the portfolio. And like we were, we were reducing cap rates by, you know, 150 basis points at the beginning of the year, because of all the the aggressive pricing we were seeing. And then they blew out 300 basis points. You know, what are you seeing in the market today? You How are you at bottoming? First of all other people aren't buying as much, although you guys have still listened pretty big deals recently. But how do you serve a client when they are? They're not in transactional and super transactional mode?

Gideon Gil: 39:11

Well, so let's start with where you said, like between January, December, what has really changed, right, I think we went from a frenetic crazy pace, you know, throughout a lot of 2021, right, a year ago, at this time, we couldn't even get people on the phone. Right? It was just like, everybody was so busy, going through their pipelines getting transactions closed. And, you know, it was honestly it was very exciting, right? It's sort of was like, Oh, finally, this is our reward after the pandemic. You know, now we have been sitting in homes, we haven't been as transactional, right? And all of a sudden 2021 proved to be like an incredibly busy year. And a lot of that carried over into the first quarter of this year, right where I think even though the sort of Seeds of, you know, inflation and rates are going to move higher, we're definitely being spoken about. It was something where it, it sort of, I think it took a while for people to sort of really realize that that happened. And that's going to really result in where we are right now in December. Right, where you kind of fast forward. And, you know, what we're doing is we're kind of, candidly, I think we're being more advisors than ever, right, in the sense of working with clients. It's a lot of processes that have an intended goal. But I think we have to be realistic, like that goal may not happen in this calendar year, it may not happen in next calendar year. But it's sort of saying very close to a situation. So that when the market does break, you have done everything possible to set yourself up to perform for your client at that point. Right. So again, it comes down to sort of like that, what can I do for you? How can I be prepared in order to you know, because at some point, again, we've probably been in this industry a while, you know, this is not the first time I've seen things sort of seize up. And it's certainly somehow always feels like a bit of a surprise when it does happen. But the other part is, it's like these, these moments, while you're in them, seem like they're never going to end they do change and things do eventually improve. But it's sort of just like kind of being around your base, and sort of making sure that they understand you're there for them. And you're not only there for them when you can make money, right? Like I hate to say that way, it's just like you're there for them. Because you know, you're committed to seeing your clients succeed. And there will be times where it's easy, and everybody's happy. And there'll be times where it's challenging. And it takes a longer time and maybe have to wait longer for the success to happen. But it's sort of just kind of staying connected to those, you know, clients and those transactions for as long as you can.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 42:01

Yeah. So let's say you have a client, they have a loan, that's gonna be maturing, I don't know, let's say sometime next year, you enter next year. Right, so and then, what are you telling them today? They're getting nervous? Like, what? Yeah, I don't know, what's going to happen, where the markets gonna be? How are you advising a client like that to prepare for that coming event?

Gideon Gil: 42:25

Yes. So it's, it's getting there early, right. So that, you know, sometimes, look, I think clients are even in good markets are really looking at their book and sort of figuring out like, they're not waiting, you know, three months before a loan matures to kind of run a broker process, right? And figure out like, hey, go to these lenders, most folks are getting ahead of it, I think folks are getting ahead of their loan maturities earlier. And I think in the cases where they feel like it's going to be a challenge, for whatever the reason, whether it's value, whether it's, you know, refinancing proceeds, they're trying to get in front of that early and early with their lender, right? I think if there's one lesson that I learned and took away from the financial crisis, which was, you know, like 1415 years ago, but yet still feels extremely relevant. You know, as far as like that sort of seminal moment in a career, right, when you kind of like, feel like, wow, that was when everything changed. And you saw a lot of, of how people performed and behaved in the market. And the thing that I seem to take away was the operators who kind of tried to do everything they could to figure it out, and work collaboratively and transparently. And this is not like, perfect, right? It didn't always work out this way. But those were the ones that seem to kind of ride out of these crisis, or these challenging situations in better shape. The ones that seem to take a adversarial approach, like may have won some battles, but probably didn't win the wars, you know, when it came to the relationship stuff. So, you know, and the nice thing about our industry is like, people do tend to have short memories and, and can kind of move on and you know, again, to a better cycle, and you're successful, and folks want to work with you. But it does feel like we're in one of those moments where collaboration is going to be so critical. And to think you could just do it by yourself is I think, I think it's tough. Like I think you want to have the best people around you both internally and you know, advisors externally like whatever in order to kind of help you figure it out.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 44:45

Yeah. I think that that's right and for the lenders to to be to over communicate with their clients, right, not just to wait till six months before before maturity, but really to be checked. And then like, where is everything? Okay, and just, you know, just to make sure. I mean, I remember during the financial crisis that you're right, we one of the things that there was very little of it seemed like was communication. You know, and you had, I remember having clients when good properties, but they had maturing CMBS. You know, they defaulted. And they they were, they had properties were foreclosed without a single phone call to the client. It just,

Gideon Gil: 45:30

Yeah, it sort of goes back to like this, this is very much business is very much about relationships. Right? And you really, look, you really want to do everything you can to, to protect those relationships. And it works both ways. Right? It's like, look, we hear it from lenders right now, where they're like, they know they have some problem loans. But there are two borrowers who they really value those relationships. And the easy thing would be to just say, let's just sell the note and move on and put it into somebody else's hands, it becomes someone else's problem. But it again, it is a two way street. And people realize it's like, you know, we can't just do that we can only be there for people in the good times, like and not be there in the bad times. And that's something that I think the better capital providers realize, now. Now, granted, some of them are regulated, so they don't really have a choice, right. So at some point, you know, the clock does one down, and you have to do what you have to do. But, you know, I think folks are trying to manage those relationships so that when we do all come out of moments like this, you're not isolated, and you're not like, oh, I closed up shop, I didn't do any lending. I didn't return phone calls, and everybody was on their own. And it's like, yeah, it's like, well, that says something about, you know, the road ahead with you, you know, so it's, it's, it's important.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 46:55

Yeah. Ya know, that that makes that makes sense. Are you seeing any banks or lenders start to sell loans? You know, you're kind of distressed, loan sales.

Gideon Gil: 47:10

Yes. So there's definitely that momentum in the market right now. And we we have our team here in New York, handles, a bunch of that, you know, with with Adam Spees and Doug's team. And then we have a note sales team that's, you know, based in DC that kind of really runs that around the country, both in good markets and challenging markets. And, you know, we've definitely seen an uptick, I think it's been, to some degree, it's been a little bit more one off at this point, right. It's not like what we saw, where, you know, you'd have like, huge portfolios of loans being sold, in order just to create huge liquidity for some of these institutions to survive. Like, I haven't seen anything even close to that yet. So I think there's a lot of just like, the ones we can figure out a blend and extend or some pay down, like if there's still value to be had, but it's just bad timing, like, those situations, I know, are getting worked on behind the scenes, we're working on some of those. I think it's the one where the value is clearly changed. You know, it's, it's whether it's like, you know, potentially an office building or a ground lease situation, leasehold. Like, those are the ones that I we're we're definitely seeing much, much more momentum on right now.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 48:31

Yeah. Yeah, it's, you have to know the business that you're in. Yeah. And the businesses that you're in, but But you may not know it, you know, so like, with with our with with real estate owners, you think you're in the real estate business, let's say a multifamily owner, are you thinking what you do is you bought you own apartments and you manage apartments? But, you know, what I've said, is that the fundamentals in the multifamily market, like they've always been strong, we've never really not been strong, even in the financial crisis, they were strong. The risk that you have with multifamily is low maturity, you know, or, or I guess, like a fund redemption. But your, your hope is that when your loan is maturing, that the market is not in a place where there's no liquidity, you know, it's there. We both sell lots of great real estate that was lost in the financial crisis, just because at that moment, no lenders were there. So I think, you know, multifamily owners, real estate owners like when they finance it, probably some have larger debt strategies, but I feel like a lot of them, it's like, well, how do I maximize the return on this, this acquisition, you know, based on where the market is today, and then they don't realize that they're also in the debt management. If you're in the if you're in the real estate market, you're also in the debt management market. Yeah. And you want to be diversified in that regard in terms of maturities and the types. So I wonder if like one thing that that people could Do Is it to sit with the client. And yes, they're worried about the maturity next year. But it's also an opportunity, when things aren't as frenetic to sit back with a client and say, look, let's look at your whole debt portfolio. And let's come up with a strategy of where we'd like this to be like, five years from now, you know, and start putting in place a plan, because at some point, the markets are going to open up, and let's not be in this situation, let's try to see we could not be in a situation again, with a more holistic, holistic approach.

Gideon Gil: 50:30

No, agreed. I think that's probably one of the reasons why, you know, last year was such a busy year in the financing markets, because, you know, I know, we had several transactions where there wasn't a looming maturity date. But you know, we and sponsors kind of got together and said, You know, it's not gonna get much better than it is right now, you know, the, you pay a little prepayment penalty, but you locked this thing up for another 10 years, and you kind of put it away. And there was some folks that were like, all over that a lot of a lot of people. And then there's some folks that were like, took a little bit of approach, like now, you know, I don't want to pay that prepayment penalty, and I don't think rates are moving higher. And anytime soon, there's, you know, the Omicron, or whatever, you know, it was like, on a stuff that, you know, and again, you know, you just never know, so, but I do agree with you being strategic, as far as, like how you approach your whole portfolio, like, you know, I definitely had more conversations with folks about challenging refinancings, because there were more like value added plans, and the timing is just bad, right? They're just like, not done yet. And their loan is up for maturity. Right. So those are situations that are somewhat unavoidable, just because the the business plan got delayed during the pandemic, and now it's, you know, a year or two behind. So those are ones we're definitely working through and trying to work with lenders to sort of figure out if there's an organic extension, or if we have to go back out to market. You know, the, the other part of that equation is like, obviously, the cost of that capital is moved up materially, the we have sort of the opposite issue right now, where I'm sure you're seeing this. Most of the borrowers and frankly, most of the lenders we're working with right now seem to have the most capital available for shorter term financing, because they sort of feel two things. One is they, the lenders feel like it's much more economical to lend, you know, they can pay more right now based on the indices and the Treasury. And candidly, the spreads, and the borrower's feel like, well, I'd rather take the short term hit in the next 24 months. Yeah, I'm still going to work on my business plan, and the fundamentals in multifamily largely are still pretty strong. And I'd rather not lock into, you know, a loan at a coupon of like five and three quarters percent or 6%, when I really believe it's going to be four and a half or four and three quarters percent in 24 months from now. So, you know, we're kind of everyone's sort of like figuring that out as well, as we kind of, you know, wade through this this time here.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 53:06

Yeah. All right. Well, Gideon, this has been really enlightening. And it's, it's nice to hear the Yeah, I mean, clearly remain calm. Yeah. Even in the eye of the storm that we're that we're you're currently in. So yeah, I really appreciate you coming on a lot of really great points. And it's gonna make me think about storytelling. A lot. I think it's a real, it's a really invaluable point. If people take it to heart. Amen.

Gideon Gil: 53:58

Amen. All right. Let's go get 'em!

Mordecai Rosenberg: 53:59

Alright. Talk to you later Gideon.

Gideon Gil: 54:01

Thanks.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 54:01

Take care.