Episode 36: Aaron Krawitz, Founder and CEO of Bravo Capital

Building knowledge is incredibly important, but the anticipation of what's around the corner can be even more important for an originator. Aaron Krawitz is excellent at both. He is the founder and CEO of Bravo Capital, and offers his perspective on the importance of the originator's role in loan sign ups, how to build your brand, and how to continuously grow and build your skills and knowledge.

TIMESTAMPS: 

1:22 - Aaron's Earliest Sales Experiences

8:04 -  We’ve Surrounded Ourselves with an Exceptional Team

15:48 - Starting as an Analyst vs. an Underwriter

20:22 - How to Make a Craft at Origination 

25:32 - What’s Your Formula for Underwriting and Closing?

31:31 - Preparing Your Team for Their Next Job

35:29 - Building Your Own Brand and Building Your Own Platform

42:16 - The Benefits of Having a Regional Approach in the FHA Space.

48:04 - What is the Off Ramp From Origination?

53:51 - How Do I Best Serve My Customers?

lenders, market, people, loan, client, equity, selling, deals, screen protectors, year, calls, rates, business, borrower, easy, long, sales, chase, interest rates, debt

Transcript

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:00

Hey, this is Mordecai, welcome back to the Origination Podcast, where we speak to the top originators and brokers in the multifamily industry to try to understand what separates the top performers from the rest of the pack. On this episode, I'll be speaking with Aaron Krawitz, founder and CEO of Bravo Capital. This is such a great conversation. Some of the things we'll talk about include the importance of not just building knowledge, but about anticipation, how do you see what's around the corner. We also talk about the importance of the originators role after a loan signs up. And not just passing the buck. Once you have signed application. We'll also discuss how to continue to build your brand. By growing and building your skills and knowledge as an originator. We'll talk about these things and so much more on this great conversation. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. So without further ado, let's speak with Aaron. Aaron Krawitz. Welcome to the Origination Podcast. I'm excited to have you here.

Aaron Krawitz: 1:35

It's great to be here.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 1:37

Yeah. So, you know, we just kind of connected the dots and realized that we have a bunch of common history went to the same you both went to Penn. But but didn't I didn't have the pleasure of knowing you back then. So glad to have the opportunity today.

Aaron Krawitz: 1:53

Same This podcast was inevitable. That's right.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 1:57

The Fates. Gates conspired for us to meet. So Aaron, I know you went through a path of law school till you came back to finance which I am curious about. If you thought about kind of sales experience, anything come to mind if you would think about like, earliest sales experience, it could be in, in school, it could be high school, it could be after college, or after law school way, what comes to mind? If you've thought about the first time you were you ever selling something?

Aaron Krawitz: 2:29

Sure. So professionally, the first time I was selling something was my first law firm. I was taken on a pitch actually. And we were walking through a co working space with a partner. And as we were doing that, the partner who is so sophisticated, was picking up on value ads, he was saying, you know, it was recently built space wasn't like not yet occupied. He was asking questions a mile a minute about the density and whether it would be permitted. He was asking about the liquor license, because they had different types of alcohol on tap. He was asking about the floor plan and whether it worked with the elevator. And he was just going and he was demonstrating such exceptional knowledge and value add. And this was not on the books. This was just he was supposed to be getting a tour. Right? Most people would be shutting off their brain at that moment. And just be taking it in and saying, Oh, that is nice. But he was just very active in spotting issues spotting kind of parts of the business that intersect that he might be able to help. And that kind of left a lasting impression on me.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 3:46

And this is a partner at the firm.

Aaron Krawitz: 3:49

Yeah.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 3:50

And this is a client who was ... already a client? Or was this to where they were you pitching this department kind of pitching for that business?

Aaron Krawitz: 4:01

He was pitching the business and getting a tour? Yeah.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 4:05

Yeah. So that's very interesting, because it also what that means is that it sounds like the questions that he's asking are not just it's not just legal questions, they touch on law. But also, it's about things that have to do with the operations and the regulations. Like there's a lot of it's a lot of in depth knowledge that one would have to have, you're showing your experience by means of the questions.

Aaron Krawitz: 4:30

It's really weird knowledge and anticipation intersect, and really anticipating what somebody else will need, even if they don't know it yet. And I have another example just like that, where I was with a mentor back in the early legal days, and we were at a very lavish ribbon cutting ceremony for a project where we worked on the acquisition and the ground lease and there was a lot of food and drinks and out just frankly, sitting down, eating, enjoying myself listening to multiple speakers, you know, at this groundbreaking launch event, and we heard our client, the developer, talk about how he was going to create a new wall. That was glass overlooking the water. And he would demolish an existing structure. And he just said that, in passing as he was going, you know, we're going to have water views. On the right side, we're going to knock down this wall, and it will be gorgeous. And to a fault. I was thinking to myself, Oh, that will be very beautiful. And, you know, my mentor, who is sitting next to me said, Aaron, did you hear that? And he said, Yeah, he said, you know, they can't demolish that wall. Right? Is it? No, he said, it's a historic structure, it's subject to landmark, you know, we need to either find a way to Yes, really fast. Or we have to get some clarity on that. Right. And just that lesson of, never turn off your mind, always think always anticipate what is the other person need, and try to keep learning?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 6:12

Yeah, historical, reminds me we were talking about the synagogue in Englewood. Kesher. So I was I was president of the synagogue when we were trying to build a building, which was, you know, fundraising and planning. So there is an old - at the time you're in this is old blue house that was on the site. And the plan was to demolish the house. And I remember I was in one of in a community meeting, where I was trying to get I needed to get you to approve moving forward with, you know, with the budget, and someone said, What about the deed restriction about on the house? Like, what do you what are you talking about? What deed restriction? Right? And it turns out that there was a deed restriction? Because it was not exactly it's not, it doesn't have historical designation, but it's from 1867. And sure enough, like 10 years later, the new building is built, but that blue house is still there. Because, yeah, because of this restriction, you know, and I think probably people would, even people who knew about it was like, Oh, don't worry, like, we'll be able to figure that out. But to be able to point out that there's something substantial here that needs to be dealt with, you know, we have to do is we ended up building the new building to accommodate having the old building there in perpetuity, because we didn't know what we'd be able to do to deal with it. But that's such a great lesson. So knowledge, where knowledge and anticipation intersect, how do you, we'll jump around a little bit, but how do you apply that heavy financial climate today, you know, in the world of finance, and you know, we'll get come back to you to your story. And now you're the CEO and founder of Bravo capital. There's a lot you focusing on on F&G Finance, but probably do a lot of other things as well. F&G Finance is very complicated, because all finance is somewhat complicated, but haven't yet do you find yourself applying that idea of knowledge plus anticipation?

Aaron Krawitz: 8:23

Definitely. So I think the easy answer is we've surrounded ourselves with an exceptional team, just from end to end with industry veterans who have received a number of awards and accolades. And I have that same feeling I had when I started at Skadden, which was great, which was that any question has an answer? That's somewhere in the building? Right? Somebody who is on our team has dealt with this somewhere knows it could answer it. So having just that knowledge base concentrated in our offices has been fantastic. But where I'd really like to take this is, I see a big part of my role as kind of setting standards for our team and trying to figure out who is a Bravo team member who who makes that cut? Who qualifies. And often times, it's somebody who has those same traits that we talked about somebody who kind of takes ownership, right, as if a project is theirs, that they're working on, not somebody who's trying to pass the buck and you see this so much with origination. And originators don't realize this, they think they sign up an engagement letter, and they're done. They think like I did it, right, I signed up my engagement letter. Let me pass the buck to underwriting and that's just wrong. So wrong on so many levels. Right, we're first you likely signed up your engagement letter because some Buddy, on the other end of the phone is relying on you, and your reputation, you know, your ability to supervise, to be engaged to have your fingerprints every step of the way. So just, there's that fiduciary responsibility, first of all, but then just thinking from a particular like, just origination maximization like point of view, most people, their origination when they hit real big dollars, it's from repeat customers, right? It's from somebody who keeps coming back and coming back for more, right, and that person is going to realize that you pass the buck, right, that person is going to realize you're not taking ownership, you're not trying to learn, you know, the intricacies of their real estate project of their business plan, that feeling that no detail of theirs is too small for you. Right, whatever it is, even if it's boring, right, even if it's kind of legal, or paperwork or something you'd rather be watching, you know, a TV show, then kind of working with them on just, you know, being involved having that kind of sense of, yes, let me anticipate, let me kind of learn more about their project on every deal. There's often also something new, right, where, you know, an originator can learn something from that experience that they could apply otherwise. But I think the idea of, of using those concepts to then secure repeat origination and to be engaged from end to end is very important. And from a personality perspective, you know, finding people who take ownership, right, who live and die, right with their clients, and with their transactions, because it's their reputation. And it's, you know, just their own self respect is based on, you know, can I execute?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 11:51

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really great, great point. Let's see, the challenge. One challenge, though, if, let's say when you're starting out, may not know anything about anything. So like, you're always I mean, I remember like, how I mean, you're like, just totally on the you're flying on the edge of your seat, you know, or whatever the right phrases, but it's like you don't you don't really know, like, you just hope you don't get into trouble along the way, by missing something that should have been enough. And so how do you like, what do you do at the at the beginning, when you're starting out? You're Yes, there are underwriters that can answer questions. But sometimes you don't even know, the questions to ask, what do you do as someone starting out?

Aaron Krawitz: 12:39

Yeah. So I think that that's a great way just to describe what it's what it's like, for somebody walking into a building for the first time. Right, as an originator, you don't know anything, right? That's, that's the first step to growth, right? Knowing You don't know anything. And in your first year, you're probably not going to add so much value, right? The company is going to be adding value to you. There's going to be training you. And you're just a sponge, hopefully learning and learning to ask a lot of questions and what questions to ask. But my mentality, in the early days, wherever I was working any new job was that until I learned enough, so that I could add demonstrable value. I'm going to be out working everybody in this building, right? I'm going to be sleeping on the floor, working 24 hours a day, if I can, just killing myself, right to show if I don't have the knowledge yet. And I'm just early on. And if I'm not adding value, at least nobody's going to question my work ethic, because I'm going to do everything humanly possible to learn this new business, and to excel at it. And that's, of course, me, that's not what we expect from our employees. Right. But it's but it's at least a level of kind of passion and intensity where, you know, I think some competitive drive both with other firms and internally is great, right? And just saying, you know, I want to, you know, make more calls than the guy next to me, I want to show, right, I'm doing deeper research and my CRM, everybody knows that when they see a employee x, right, post, they're going to get so much detail. I'm going to list every kid's name that the person I talked to, and I'm wanting to know like what sport they like playing and I just everything I touch is gold, right? Like people who have that mentality where it's like, sure, I don't know anything day one, but like my work product is going to go that extra mile my effort level is going to exceed that of others.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 14:51

Yeah. Your path to into the business. What was your first position in commercial real estate or multifamily finance.

Aaron Krawitz: 15:03

So I don't, I guess bifurcate my legal experience from HUD finance and bridge finance experience these days, I think it's very much connected. I was my legal work was always real estate finance, and had the privilege to work with a number of namebrand clients that have stayed in touch, whether it's, you know, related or Tishman or elsewhere. And many of the deals that I worked on back then were large scale financing, whether it was multifamily or healthcare or other asset classes. So there there has been that continuum throughout.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 15:48

Yeah, yeah. So you learned the business through the lens of law? If but law does require you to get in understand lots of different things. Like I always mean, people have different opinions about this. But there are people who are of the opinion that you should start as an analyst or starting underwriting to become you know, before you become an originator you in the investment banking world, where they have, they have a kind of a regimented career path, but you start as an analyst, right, then you're an associate then you're a vice vice president. And after 10 year, Vice President, you're in deals, you're running deals, you're doing every part of it. After 10 years, it's the first time that they really let you

Aaron Krawitz: 16:35

I love that. Yeah, I think I think that's the get on the phone. way to do it. Right? And that's very much what my training was like, the early years. Were not sexy, right? They, I was doing very basic work. I was doing title, I was doing survey, I was helping people form JV's. I was reviewing phase ones and phase twos. It was like environmental reports. Just real basic building block type work. And it was not exciting, right? To say the least. But guess what, now that I've done all of that, when I'm on a call, and there's a $50 million deal, and somebody's saying, Oh, I don't know if we could do it, because we have this phase one issue, or we have this JV issue. Sometimes, not always, but I have some value to add. And more rarely, I have a solution where I say, Hey, how about this, or I did this in another deal, Or, you know, did you ask the phase one provider about that. And I have that demonstrable knowledge that is able to kind of sometimes, you know, pardon the musty, but be a different type of experience than other originators have as background. And I think clients appreciate that level of attention to detail, being solution-oriented. And I think exactly what you described somebody who has to, in some ways, get trained in a way that might not be so pleasant early on, but it's going to pay dividends later on. It's just part of paying your dues, right. And in something that's going to be accretive for that person, later in their lives. So whether it's legal diligence, whether it's starting with underwriting, I've seen a lot of very strong originators come through that path. And they just sound more sophisticated and more solution based because of it.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 18:32

Yeah, no, I definitely hear that, I'd say short of that. Like one of the things that I did, like I never was an underwriter. I was an analyst for a few years. But I always tried to find the answer myself. First, like I would look in with with FHA. Ironically, it's a little easier because you have like, just one guidebook that you look at, like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, they're always coming out with new exceptions. And it's hard to, like, get my arms around what exactly that text was, but you know, I would, if I, the question came up, I would just try to like, just look up in the guy like what what it says, you know, and, and I also was like, very, it's not that, that I wouldn't trust people, but I kind of like, want to, if someone said something that I didn't, that wasn't the answer that I was looking for, like, I would say, alright, let like let me go look at the text and see, right, and sometimes even people who had been doing this for 10/15 years, 20 years, like, they weren't always correct. You know, I remember one time with an FHA deal. They were saying that I think it was an affordable housing deal. And they said, Well, you know, if you look at the actual NOI, and you're figuring out the value, and then you could do whatever 80%/85% of that, right and I looked at the guide and note for an affordable property you can actually use this idea you have an a stabilized value? Like we're not as stabilized, but as like a market? What would what would the market return value be? Which with higher rents? So, and then when I, when I showed them, I said like, No, we can actually get more loan proceeds because even though they have tax credit rents that are lower, we're allowed to underwrite this as if, the rents were market rate. And so you're actually you're correct. So to be like to make a craft at of origination, like you really need to know your stuff. So I think you can maybe sell yourself short, if you're not gonna be an underwriter, and not everyone, you maybe can be an unfair, they may not have like that, whatever, that their unique ability may not align so well. But just to me, I think it's still helpful to just to know, really be educating yourself as you're learning with ask a lot of questions. And don't take anything for granted.

Aaron Krawitz: 20:53

Definitely, no, I think that's a great example. And I like that standard, of course, you know, at a minimum or checking the map guide, if you're an originator or thinking through the issue. And, to me, it reminds me of people who ask a question, right before they even look it up on Google, right? It's kind of like you don't want somebody not to take it as far as they could go. We don't want somebody to take it hours of spinning their wheels, but you know, put a little effort into it. And I would really go beyond that. I think another value is really urgency, right? Where if you're working for a client on a transaction, and you're an originator, and you want them to give that you that repeat business, which I think is really the touchstone Right? Like, that's what everybody wants, right? Not just to originate that one big deal, but to have billions of deals from dollars in deals from great, huge clients. Don't you think your client is going to sense your urgency level your commitment level? Right? Are you going to treat this transaction as financing, like your life is on the line? And when you're going through a very nuanced HUD process, there will inevitably be hurdles, right? There will be issues that you think maybe we cannot clear this hurdle. And even if you have your 5-star underwriting team, like I believe we have and very proud of our team. If you're an originator, and you want to differentiate yourself, act like your life's on the line, right? Read everything, you can read the map guide, read other things on the internet, try to find ways within the bounds that your client can help clear that hurdle. And I am certain that the client will realize that, and we'll probably brag about you, the other people and say, Guess what employee X just did guess what this originated? He found this he looked he himself double check the underwriter writers I want to work with him again. Right? Because ultimately, everybody's thinking, like, what's your edge? Right? What's your differentiator? Why should I work with you originator versus somebody else? And one of the most compelling things I've heard from a superstar originator was just, you know, that we push harder. Yeah. And within the bounds, but just like that urgency, that effort level, that level of advocacy for your client, where you will fight as hard as you can within the bounds to, you know, help them go from step to step is so valuable and leads to long term loyalty.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 23:34

Yeah, I wrote down a formula that, well, it's based on what you said, but that knowledge plus anticipation plus urgency, equals success. Yeah.

Aaron Krawitz: 23:49

And they're also equal, somebody who I bet, Mordecai, like, either of us would love to work with, right? Like, it would be an originator, a junior originator, who would just be refreshing if they have those three traits. It's almost like, you know, of course, you want the laundry list of everything else, right? You want the integrity and the transparency and you'd like you want the basics. But those three are such differentiators. And ultimately, for me, like the ultimate at work is being around those types of A players, right, because A player's like working with A players. And sure, it's great to see success whether it's monetarily or for your clients and execution and lots of closings, but for me, there's nothing that beats that exhilaration of being in a room with you know, how many guys 10/20 Guys right? And girls who you feel like you could lock arms with, you could go to war with because they're so stellar. And they each are so hungry, you know, for excellence knowledge, you know, figuring out what their client needs, the urgency you know, it feeds off of each other, right and ultimately creates an origination culture, which is why I think it's very hard to be a lone wolf originator, I really I tell our team, it's a team sport, right? It's a team tackle sport, it's a team sport. But you want people with those qualities, so that they feed off of each other, and that they ultimately, you know, learn from each other and keep their energy level up from each other. But I think your formula hit it.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 25:32

Yeah. Yeah. Well it's your formula? So you can you can feel free to use it.

Aaron Krawitz: 25:39

Thank you.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 25:43

I liked what you said about the culture and the origination culture, which, you know, that will sometimes get a bad rap in our industry, when people say, oh, yeah, they have an origination culture as if, like, they just, you know, they're gonna favor originators and just willing to sacrifice your underwriters. But that's not that's not what, you know, that's not what what it means it means that you're focused on getting deals done. How do you when you're when you're interviewing and trying to sell someone on your on on Bravo, capital, let's talk about on the underwriting side of underwriting and closing, how are you energizing them for that an underwriter and closers like some of them will have a sense of urgency, but some of them you know, may not naturally have that, like, if you have to see like, what's kind of like the mission or vision? Have you put something out there that is inherently like energizing to the team? Or is it just kind of personalities that you're hiring for? Yeah, can you do that?

Aaron Krawitz: 26:47

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. So on the underwriting team to begin with, trying hard not to brag, but I might veer into that territory a little bit. But our underwriters are so exceptional, they're so self-motivated, they pride themselves on, you know, speed and certainty and quality of their execution, then I don't have to worry about, you know, motivating them, I know, they're going to be giving whoever the originator is, and me and the client status updates, and within the bounds pushing as hard as they can, it's just, you know, in their fabric, who they are great team, you know, in a great structure. And, you know, on the underwriting side, a great underwriting culture and on the knowledge piece, we do a lot to promote that learning, we have a lot a in house Learning Center and knowledge videos, and just a lot of policies and procedures on that side of the house. So there's nothing that I need to do to keep that functioning at this point. It's really, you know, self sustaining, but in terms of, you know, separately, you know, what, what part of the vision is, and what's you know, motivating, is ultimately growth, right personal growth story I tell a lot is, when I was at Penn, I have a friend who was very close to me then who was at the top of his class at Penn. And he received two offers. And one was from Blackstone. And the other was from a venture capital firm, and Blackstone, at the time was paying him. No, we're offering to pay him triple what any business school Wharton student would expect, coming out. And I was sitting around with him on the couch in our dorm room saying we're going to take the Blackstone offer, right. And the VC offer was, you know, much lower, you know, kind of market salary, but had tremendous upside in terms of him being able to learn a lot, grow a lot, become an executive within the company more rapidly. And he said, That's a no brainer, I'm gonna go VC. And I was stunned just from my, my personal life journey, like the idea of, you know, hitting that that Blackstone point early on, seemed exceptional. And I couldn't imagine boggled my mind that he would pass on it. And so he took the VC opportunity, I think he made tons more money than he would have otherwise learned a ton more. And his philosophy was always if, if I'm investing in myself, if I'm investing in growth, in skills and knowledge, right, these these tools that are going to make me like that Navy Seal, like that swiss army knife. I'm longterm going to do so much better than if I go to, you know, a 5000 person company that's been around for 50 years. And I could wave that prestige flag in front of people and say, Look, I'm legitimate, because I'm working at this company that's been around for 50 years, and, you know, has 5000 employees. That's a false sense of security. That's a full security blanket, right? Think ultimately People who have lived corporate life see that, ultimately, you're left with yourself, you're left with your own tools, your own strains, your own muscles or the muscles that have atrophied. And if somebody drops you in a jungle, right, are you going to survive? Right? If somebody gives you an uncertain climate, if something happens to your company, you know, God forbid, right? Are you going to survive? What tools do you have? Right? What's inherent in you? And I think we understand that value proposition we invest so heavily, and training, growth, ladder grooming future executives, adding further business platforms, that we are that VC of the finance world right now, where we're focused on a pure meritocracy. And whoever, regardless of age, if somebody can outperform qualitatively, they will be rewarded, you know, with promotions and with growth, that they would otherwise be hitting a very hard ceiling at another employer that has 1000s of people who are bureaucratically ahead of them. And that's, you know, on all sides of the house, right on the corporate side, origination underwriting we're, we're a hyper growth engine right now for people. And we're trying to understand those people as to what they need, and how we could help them what their weak spots are, how we could shore them up.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 31:31

I love that. And I'm very much in line with that philosophy. You know, what I what I tell my team? Is, anyone who I've worked with is that I want to know what do you want your next job today? And how can I prepare you for your next job? Or if it's at Greystone or at another firm, but I want to know, like, what can I do to prepare you for your next job? Right now, the interesting thing is, it sounds crazy, because you know, you'll want your 100 team employees and you want them to, you don't want them to go to the next to another firm if they're throwing play. But the interesting thing is that if you're always preparing them for their next job, then they're not going to want to leave because they're growing, and they're learning and they're getting stretched. Yeah. So I love that focus on the people.

Aaron Krawitz: 32:24

And something also people don't talk about so much because there's this duality, but within origination, I strongly believe your biggest competitor is often the person who is sitting next to you. So on the one hand, you want that on the origination side of the house, origination culture team, tackle, collaborate, work together, share experience, share knowledge, but in the back of your mind, you know, that if they have a CRM lead, that's blocking you, right. And if you have 1000, people who are on every single hub lead instantaneously, that does limit opportunities in certain ways, there are also certain benefits to having a team that large, right, but if you have a more nimble team, there's more open ocean out there. And, you know, there might be more opportunity for an analyst who's a certain type of person or an originator who's a certain type of person who's betting on themselves to grow because there's less internal competition, if you believe in leadership, and if you believe in the overall structure.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 33:36

Yeah. One thing that you said was about, about working on, on on weaknesses. And that that's when I, the approach that I've taken with that is something that I learned from part of an executive coaching program called Strategic Coach, guy who runs says Dan Sullivan, and he says that everyone has weaknesses, right? And in school, like you're taught to, you got to work on your weaknesses. But if all you do is work on your weaknesses, then at the end of your life, you're just gonna have a lot of strong weaknesses. But if you're, but if you work on your strip, and if you just try to identify your strengths, and exploit those things to be the best in the world, as I'm trying to help people figure out like, alright, what is the next job that you're wanting? Like? I'm always trying to keep an eye out for what is it? Like where am I seeing them take particular joy and what they're doing at work. To me energy is like the biggest like talent for what what your, your strengths are, right? And I'm constantly paying attention to this, like, what are the things that I'm doing that are giving me energy? What are the kinds of calls in Amman in energy depleting are things that are the opposite that I do and even like with the people that I'm spending time with, like, who are the people that are energizing for me, you know, and energy depleting so have something for, like, maybe the you know, and I'll try to stretch someone with, you know, maybe there's a phrase, I think we believe that like GE, which is like you try to give someone like a hotdog stand, right? It's like, okay, we're gonna, you're like a little mini business to like, run, you know, try this out, don't we're not gonna have your whole team to manage this can be to people to manage and see how you do with that, you know that that's an approach that I've been I've tried to take with, with strengths.

Aaron Krawitz: 35:28

that's great. Yeah, just to riff off that a little bit, that call it hot dog stander, that idea within Bravo of building your own brand, right, building your own platform. And we want people to be flexing their muscles and flexing muscles they didn't even know they had, right. We want people to be having areas of expertise, and to be speaking with reporters and conferences, and building you know, their brand, building their platform. And not feeling like that detracts from me or that detracts from you know, bravo, but that will strengthen the whole. And I think, you know, a couple of other items you hit on, I guess, particularly the energy one, that's so important, right? You're somebody's energy level, and just something I found useful. Do you use any of those trackers? Like the Oura ring?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 36:19

Yeah, got one.

Aaron Krawitz: 36:21

There you go. So I yeah, I love it. I think that just to be on top of, you know, what's your charge for the day, you know, and making sure that you're not, you know, burning yourselves yourself at both ends. You know, that's, that's critical, because I think a lot of people don't even realize that you don't know when your big opportunity is going to come. Right? You don't know. You know, something that will shift the scales ultimately, comes unexpectedly, where you just have to be ready for the pitch with your best swing. And if you're not fully charged, you're going to be in trouble. Right? Right. But if if that, you know, origination lead, you've been chasing for the last year and a half, finally turns around and starts chasing you and gives you a call, you know, and you sound flat, and you're not in your best, and you're not your most engaged, you know, that extra five hours you spent the night before, you know, just chasing new leads, it's not worth it. Right? Because you weren't performing at your peak?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 37:29

Hmm. Yep. So true. The lone wolf point that you made, I don't know what to do about that. Like, it's, it's, to me, it's such a impediment to maximizing the potential of a firm, this idea that you have, you know, all these originators that are kind of going off on their own. And it's zero sum, right, that if if you get a deal, and I don't, there are other sales businesses, like even I see in the investment sales arena, which is like a first cousin to what we do kind of yet, but they'll have a pooled structure, sometimes within a team, but everyone knew this before revenue, and then there's, you know, sharing of that, I don't know, if you've found any kind of a different approach, but it's like, it also hurts scalability, because like you said, you get crowded out. Once you have, I don't know what it is 20/30/40 You know, originators that are laying claim to the universe, like it's hard for a new person to come in and find their way. So any thoughts on that? Like, and you know, how to change that mindset?

Aaron Krawitz: 38:45

Yeah, definitely. So I think, for starters, we're not bumping into each other as much, you know, because that's part of the value proposition to the origination team, that's smaller team and no more open ocean, but when they are bumping into each other, I think the first step is just awareness. Right? Just realizing that HUD is on the origination front, a low hit rate, low likelihood of having the person you call sign an engagement letter, you know, type of situation, right? This, this is not somebody who you're calling to renew their insurance premium, where they're likely going to say, Okay, right, like this is low likelihood. And therefore, all you care about as an originator should be within bounds maximizing your percentage chance that you win that transaction, right that you have it signed up. And oftentimes when you collaborate with other star originators, you will find that they bring things to the table that you don't that will add percentage points to that equation, right. And if recently, you know we closed $42 million bridge loan out in Mississippi and have some good experience, there were a part of our team like toured the site. And there are people on the team who had no involvement in that transaction. If they're trying to originate a transaction anytime soon in Mississippi, they they better involve the originators who worked on that transaction. They better work with that side of the house because they could talk to the state. They could speak to like very bespoke experience. And that team tackle will help raise percentage points or similarly, if there's somebody who has deep healthcare experience, and you don't, meeting new employee originator, that person should involve the healthcare expert, because you will add percentage points to winning that origination. And yes, you'll have to kind of figure out and split your commission, but it's still more of a win to close the deal. It's kind of that that idea of splitting an imaginary pie in the air, right, like people get so into, like, I want 100% of that pie, I want all of my commission, I don't want to split it with anybody. Yeah, well keep your pie, because if it's just air, in the sky, that's, that's not really worth anything to you, I'd better take half the pie and bring in a subject matter expert on the state on the niche on the healthcare. And I think the same really goes for lenders, right? Like, we have hopefully, you know, continued relationship with other lenders in the HUD space, and in the bridge space. Where for non confidential information, you know, we share some market data, right, when we were doing that Mississippi bridge loan, you know, we were talking to another developer and another lender that were very active in Mississippi just to get generic, kind of reference points as to what are you thinking? What are we thinking? So that spirit of collaboration, I think, on the corporate level, and on the kind of origination level, it just, it's so creative, right? You you will win more, you will be more successful financially. Without a doubt over the long term, if somebody is not a lone wolf.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 42:16

Yeah, well, at least two things that I'm that I'm seeing. Now, as Grayson has gotten larger now working with cars when they're very, very large, you know, the regional approach? You know, I feel like it's the big brokerage firms do this, it's just understood that that's how that's how they work. You know, in probably some lending firms, they're more regional, but I think in the FHA space, just because there are fewer of us, there's more FHA lenders, and thus shops, but it's like it needs it's more entrepreneurial. I'm not exactly sure why, but you don't really see that as much like that regional organizations on the FHA side, but I do see the benefits of it, to know that like, Alright, here's like, this is my lane, you know, and if I'm going to another region, I'm just going to bring in someone else, I'm going to bring in the person who's covering that region to help because they specialize, they have a regional expertise, right, and vice versa, they'll bring bring in, so I guess, also there's like, maybe there's not as much volume on the FHA side. So it's, you want to go where are the different business is, but I definitely see the benefit of a regional organization, but I don't know maybe it's not viable for some reason for lending shops or FHA shops in particular.

Aaron Krawitz: 43:43

Yeah, and that's a hard call. And we're definitely not, you know, splitting people up by regions. But for us, I think it's more we have to make nimbleness one of our strengths, because Greystone, for instance, is exceptional in so many areas and is so large and has Cushman, for instance, as you mentioned, right on the brokerage side. And in some ways your strength is your size. You could say we're, we're the largest, we're the best. On our end. No, we have to adapt to a climate where being nimble makes us the best. We have to be so flat, where on Slack or communication, everybody knows what other people are doing. And we can pivot so quickly. You know, our one of our chief underwriters came from a very large company and said, You know, sometimes making a decision, you know, took months and felt like turning around an ocean liner and here, we make decisions thoughtfully, but almost instantly, because people know what each other are doing. Like if somebody just had success on expediting a transaction to a HUD closing and an opportunity zone, everybody else we'll know about that. And then on an origination call, it's not going to be so hard when somebody says that they're in an OZ to reference, like, oh, we achieved the firm commitment in X number of days, on an OZ, because the communication is just kind of flat, clear, nimble. And whether it's bad example, or whether it's a regional example, you know, it helps us, you know, play on that strength of being fast and decisive.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 45:29

Yeah, And another concept that the planet is, you know, I, one thing that I struggle with in origination is that you're always on call, always has to be you, you know, you, and it doesn't matter if you're on vacation or whatever, like, if they're looking for you. You know, when I started to manage a sales team, I started to make sure that I always had someone else also on the deal, like I would bring in one of the junior guys, and there was always a junior salesperson on the deal, as well. Even though it was it meant less, you know, bottom line revenue for me personally, but I wanted to be able to go on vacation, and not worry about it, and know that the deal is going to be covered. So I think that maybe it's something else to sell it as just this idea of, what would it be like if you always had kind of an A and B, you know, on on on every deal. So that you want to partner with someone who you trust? And you know, it's going to reciprocate, but you know, that like, yes, you can go away with your family for a week, and, you know, not check email, and everything's gonna be okay.

Aaron Krawitz: 46:48

Yeah, for me, that idea of coverage, right, whether it's having two or three or four people in a deal simultaneously, or having somebody seamlessly write a coverage memo, somebody else could take over for a week, you know, in vacation, I think, really goes to that idea that I think we both value so much of ownership and responsiveness. And it kind of bewilders me, when I see that there are originators out there, where, especially after they have a deal signed up, they're not thinking as much maybe about getting the repeat business, and executing the transaction seamlessly for their client. And there are four or five hours that go by before they write back to their client. And it's just for me, it's it's the professionalism issue also. It's, just not professional. So however, somebody structures it, to make sure even if it's a will do that you write back to your client, just so they know, you're being attentive, you're on it. And but that responsiveness and having a structure, you know, and the ownership, you know, so that people feel like they are being attended to, and that their deal is a priority. And that, you know, there are a focus is so critical.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 48:06

Yeah, I totally agree with that. You mentioned before the point of investing in growth and skills and kind of grow your franchise value in your own brand. I'm wondering like with origination, it's a lot of upside to origination. But where do you go from there? Like, is there an off ramp from origination, so that if you decide to do it at some point, and or maybe it's after 10 years, 15 years? 20? Who knows? But what is? Have you seen, like a good offer? And for someone who says, You know what, I just want to get out of the grind, and do something else? Have you seen anyone do something with a good path? And either if you have or you haven't, what do you think about just the growth and skills that you can develop as an originator who are kind of single minded in their daily pursuits? You know, what can you do to build out your growth and what kind of growth and skills to focus on so that you have options in the future? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it kind of comes full circle to where you

Aaron Krawitz: 49:24

Yeah, that's so packed and love the question. And, you know, touches on I guess, two things that are really important for me, one is like the idea of Kaizen and just like continuous improvement every day, and just honing your craft and just getting marginally better each day, so that you are able to evolve. And then second, just as a company, started, where you talked about that story of that attorney who you know, retaining talent, right? It's not enough to have the A players, you have to make sure that they keep growing. And if you have a player's, ultimately they're going to be sued. are ambitious and they're going to want more and more and more, and you're going to have to give that to them. And it's was walking site and picking up different things and trying to good to anticipate that. So something, you know, on the origination side and on the corporate side that we've used kind of very successfully as a win win, is just having the idea of a ladder, like talking with somebody in their quarterly reviews about where do you want to go? If you could achieve offer advice, you know, if your focus is, how can I make more anything, where do you want to be? And how can we help you hit that, and maybe, you know, after you originate $100 million of, FHA transactions, your splits change, or maybe, you know, after you originate a billion dollars, you get a team under you of X number of people. And like, the worst feeling, and money, maybe at some point that gets like, a little tiring, but I've been in this spot early in my career, is when you give everything you have, and when you're putting your life and soul and making sacrifices for a company and not seeing your family and all that stuff. And you're not growing in terms of knowledge, or compensation feels like you're just getting a raw if you're if you're always focused on how can I add value, deal. And ultimately, people vote with their feet and they leave. But if you could, again, anticipate, you know, what, your teammates, and if they could help anticipate where they're going to go, we're very into giving somebody that trajectory right? You know, how do I have my clients? How do I add value? where they could then move, if they want into a corporate role, they could move into a role where they start to run a platform or co-run a platform, like, it's clear that there are stepping stones and there's growth here. And this isn't a place where somebody is going to be taken advantage of and, you And how do I identify, and so you have to be listening and know, put everything they have in and then you know flatline. Like this is a grooming grounds for future executive. So that's, that's key. And then in terms of, if somebody's just single-mindedly focused on origination, how could they be growing from the knowledge base, just listening closely, right to learning, you know, and different situations require their clients, to their clients needs to underwriters, especially once a deal is signed up to be on some of those calls and understand the process better, what your underwriters are saying, as you said earlier, looking at the map guide, you different things. And the next thing is, even if, even if the know, answering questions for yourself, sometimes even double checking your underwriter is so key, but also set goals, right set goals for yourself. Right? I think ultimately, you should want to beat yourself, beat who you were yesterday outperform? And on a lot of metrics, I think some people get too tied up in product is the product, the world is not static, and we're the, I want to make 100 Plus calls a day, and I want to make more calls than I did yesterday, or I want to add more leads to this CRM than I did yesterday, I'm very much of the approach for, all star originators, there, those guys who can keep sitting here in September of 2022. This is, you know, nine somebody on a call for over an hour. And they're not even talking about the property. They're just getting to know them. Because ultimately, we're all people. And, you know, on some level, we all are connected and should care about each other. So just to get to that deeper connection, and I think months ago, even four or five months ago, right to a totally that's a good way for an originator really measure him or herself. Did you build a deeper relationship with somebody today than you did yesterday? Do you know so much about that person? Are you so connected to them? Do you do genuinely care about them, and want good things to happen to them? I think that's a different world from an interest rate perspective. And so now way for junior originators to really improve by just measuring, like the qualitative kind of scale of the relationship. Yeah, I think of course, customer service and execution people have new needs, new concerns, new worries right, if you get up and you're like how do I best serve my customers? You know, maybe that is a way to just constantly finding newness and learning as a path. What do you think? and knowledge and anticipation all those themes from early in the call are critical. I also wouldn't disavow making money though. I think too many people think money is a dirty word. And the idea that an originator comes in day one and wants to make a lot of money. Like, I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's, I think it's a great thing. I think somebody who is trying to work their way up in life and provide for their family and who wants bigger, better things than what they had growing up. Like that type of person is also great. And I also know, it feels like this is almost contrarian now, but I value competition tremendously. Like competition, for me, is a core pillar, like of my value system, right for somebody to ever go on a basketball court, or play a game of dodgeball or whatever it is, and not give everything they have and leave it out on the floor. And same with origination. Like, you could love the originator sitting right next to you and want to collaborate with them. But if they're closing more deals than you, you better want to beat them. Like, if you don't have that competitive fire in you, you're just in the wrong industry, you're in the wrong place. So that's, that's a driver too and I think that somebody can have both right, somebody can, you know, want to close more deals, and also not cut corners, stay within the bounds offer incredible client service, and still have that driver and that sense of urgency we talked about earlier?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 56:52

Yeah, yeah, I interviewed Josh Sasouness on the podcast, you know, from from Dwight. And I asked him the questions like what's like what's driving him, it's like you close over a billion dollars, or like, there's enough, at some point, it's not, the extra dollar is not going to be the thing that makes the difference in your life. And he said, it's competition, he just wants to be at the top of the leaderboard, you know, so I do think that that's it, maybe that also speaks to something for people to think about, like, when you're deciding on where to work, it's like, you want to be in a place where like, you have real competition, and the meaning that they're people that are performing, like you at your level, but that you can aspire, or that there's people that you can aspire to try to be like, you know, that are going to pushing you to, to do better. If the top guy in a company is doing $25 million of deals a year, you know that not going to light the fire under you to really just blow it out.

Aaron Krawitz: 58:01

Yeah, and I agree with all of that. And I take it a step further in that. I think people should have muses. People should have other people where they want to pick and choose parts of their attributes and incorporate them into themselves. And I'm not saying don't be yourself, be yourself, be authentic, be genuine, Of course. But try to think about people, especially as you're like an early stage originator with people that you admire, where you think, Whoa, they just did that really well. I want to incorporate a piece, you know, of originator X into what I do, right? Or when I'm public speaking, I want to be more like Y, right, when I'm right. And just, if you're a collector of other people's strengths, and you find ways to incorporate that into yourself, I think that helps you level up in a competitive arena.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 59:01

Right. Even if you're not feeling it, you can act like someone who does have that, you know, and suprising and it's basically make it there's, there's some truth to that.

Aaron Krawitz: 59:11

Yeah. And, you know, I know we're winding up and I've avoided using basketball analogies the whole time. So I'm going to go on to indulge myself but reminds me of the mindset of top performers were athletes who are basketball players, and you hear what they say. And for me, it's just mind opening. A lot of players, they say, at times, they pretend to be somebody else. A lot of people wear the 23 Jersey, because as they're playing a professional game, they pretend that they're Michael Jordan, not just out of respect to him. Or Kobe Bryant took on another persona and gave himself a nickname. Right, like, it's that idea of, you know, not faking it being yourself being authentic, but sometimes having somebody else within you that you could draw strength from. I've just seen, you know, incredible results from that. And just, you know, ultimately, having that confidence in yourself that you've seen it done. You've seen it executed to perfection if you're a junior originator who hasn't done anything, just observe, take it in through osmosis from people around you. And then you'll be able to draw from that.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 1:00:33

I love it! Well, Aaron, congratulations on on, on starting and building a really great business and everything that we've discussed. And from what I've read, you guys are on a fantastic trajectory. So for anyone looking for a place where they can can really grow, I think they should definitely be thinking about Bravo.

Aaron Krawitz: 1:00:53

Mordecai. It's fantastic talking with you really enjoyed it.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 1:00:57

Yeah, thank you. And we'll have to do a round two, I feel like we could have gone on for for at least another hour. So...

Aaron Krawitz: 1:01:02

Yeah, I would love that.Okay.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 1:01:03

Thanks for the time.

Aaron Krawitz: 1:01:05

Take care. Thank you.